Big Guys and Boxcars

[lesya]

+1 ST forever

only not taken if i have more the 1 big guys

[mattgslater]

So, where we are now says:

1) The community is evenly split on Kroxigor/Troll/Ogre/Mummy.

2) There seems to be no total consensus.

3) There seems, in the lack of great consensus, to be a trend toward Block for Treemen, Wild Animals, Pact Big Guys, Ogre-team Ogres and Tomb Guardians.

4) Similarly, there seems to be a trend toward +ST for Beasts of Nurgle.

The only surprise here, for me, is the 3:1 in favor of Block over +ST on a Treeman. I'd think +ST on a ST6/SF piece to be a no-brainer. Otherwise, all these votes seem to jive with my perspective. I'd not take +ST over Block on a Wild Animal or on a team that has trouble getting enough Block, but I would consider it on a solo non-WA big guy and would absolutely take the ST if I were running Orcs (ST edge is their bread-and-butter, and they don't lack for Block skill) or Wood Elves (the supporting players skill fast but have a hard time getting Guard or protecting their frontmen, and ST7/SF is nasty on both players' turns).

[nick_nameless]

I take the stat boost. Always.

People get fixated on big guys. I know he's not a "Big Guy", but I have a S6 mummy on an undead team, and a s5 Stand firm, Guard mummy on the same team. The Standfirm, Guard mummy is much more useful for mucking up the middle of the board, but people are always trying to take down the s6 guy. Go bananas...use up half of your team to get the 2 die block. Love it.

Block is nice, of course, but the chances of rolling a +Str is 1/6 the chance of getting block. I'd take the STR and hope for a second doubles.

[inkpwn]

Or I dice down your ST6 mummy with my wrestler piece and bring it to the floor faster than you can say tiiiiiiimmmmmmmmbbbbbeeeeeeerrrrrrrr.

Oh and mummys are big guys. Well I think they are anyway.

[nick_nameless]

Or I dice down your ST6 mummy with my wrestler piece and bring it to the floor faster than you can say tiiiiiiimmmmmmmmbbbbbeeeeeeerrrrrrrr.

Oh and mummys are big guys. Well I think they are anyway.

Yeah...but whether you bring it down with wrestle or any other method, the point is that if you are focusing on having enough assists to get a 2 die block, I am running amok elsewhere.

[inkpwn]

I did say dice down ;p

[cyagen]

Block is nice, of course, but the chances of rolling a +Str is 1/6 the chance of getting block. I'd take the STR and hope for a second doubles.

I never assume that Nuffle will smile at me and give me a second double.

The nice thing about block is that you cannot take it away. +1 ST can be cancelled with guard, Dautless or extra assists.

As I said earlier I beleive that block is the best default choice, you can't go wrong with that.

+1 ST or Pro require a little more planning and reflextion.

Personnally I would take Pro on a Beast of Nurgle or a Warpstone Troll and a +1 ST on a Treeman or a Troll (Gobo, Orc & Pact).

[nick_nameless]

The nice thing about block is that you cannot take it away. +1 ST can be cancelled with guard, Dautless or extra assists.

I assume you don't consider wrestle to be taking block away, then?

[Khail]

Wrestle works regardless of if you have Block or not, and often the difference between S6 and S5 won't matter, because you'll be throwing a 2d uphill block.

It's just a good skill vs. Big Guys period. It makes no difference if they have block or not, so no it doesn't "take block away".

[Oly1987]

look at a blitzer with block and dauntless with an assist. Bet you wish you took block now. Unless its a Str 7 Big guy your looking at a 4+ to get a 2 dice block on your player completely nulling the +str

[dwbailey]

I had this dilemma last season with my minotaur on my Chaos Dwarf team. After much debate I took the strength and would do it again in a heartbeat!!! With Horns it meant he got a 3 die block almost every hit, whether blitzing or with one assist. Since he is a wild animal I blitzed with him often so juggernaut as his second skill made up for the lack of block and break tackle makes him a great cage breaker. With a more static big guy like an ogre or krox I would still probably lean block but for the Mino it is STR all the way!!

[mattgslater]

Wrestle works regardless of if you have Block or not, and often the difference between S6 and S5 won't matter, because you'll be throwing a 2d uphill block.

It's just a good skill vs. Big Guys period. It makes no difference if they have block or not, so no it doesn't "take block away".

This is flat-out wrong. If a player has ST5 and Block, the Wrestler treats him just like a ST5 guy without Block. If the Wrestler is ST3, he needs two assists to have a relatively safe action. Block doesn't apply. If the defender is ST6, the Wrestler needs three assists to get the same odds.

ST6 is also way better than Block when resisting enemy big guys. Big Guys and other non-Block players don't care about the defender's Block. And no, Guard doesn't make up the difference or cancel it out as somebody said. You need the extra body in contact, which isn't usually easy to arrange. Also, if you need to blow an action to get an assist, the cost of extra blown actions rises exponentially, as it's usually pretty hard to pull two guys out of position to lend assists, even when it's possible.

As far as Dauntless goes, let's look at it. ST3/Block/Dauntless with one assist vs. ST5/Block and vs. ST6. Vs. ST5 without skills, the Dauntless guy gets 56/108 (108 is the common denominator) to knock down and 13/108 to skull. Vs. ST5/Block, that guy gets 44/108 to knock down, 13/108 to skull. Vs. ST6, it's 54/108 to knock down, 18/108 to skull. From the attacker's perspective, this is only a better proposition in emergency situations. This effectively means that Dauntless works against Big Guys with Block, albeit not as well as it does against the rooks. But vs. ST6 the turnover risk increases by more than a third, making it as dangerous as a 2+ roll (worse if you consider the nearly-doubled odds of failure on a TRR).

[JaM]

I do think I'd take the STR.

Then again, I've only had this happen to minotaurs so far. Dunno of I'd do it with a Troll on an Orc team though. With gobbos I'd take the STR I think. Trees... I guess yes.

Lone Ogre (Human team), probably not, I'd want to play safe. On an Ogre team: yes, makes for a different development path. And adds to the fun.

Difficult but interesting poll, good thread.

[nick_nameless]

Wrestle works regardless of if you have Block or not, and often the difference between S6 and S5 won't matter, because you'll be throwing a 2d uphill block.

It's just a good skill vs. Big Guys period. It makes no difference if they have block or not, so no it doesn't "take block away".

This is flat-out wrong. If a player has ST5 and Block, the Wrestler treats him just like a ST5 guy without Block. If the Wrestler is ST3, he needs two assists to have a relatively safe action. Block doesn't apply. If the defender is ST6, the Wrestler needs three assists to get the same odds.

I'm glad you said it. I don;t quite have your street cred around here

[Khail]

Wrestle works regardless of if you have Block or not, and often the difference between S6 and S5 won't matter, because you'll be throwing a 2d uphill block.

It's just a good skill vs. Big Guys period. It makes no difference if they have block or not, so no it doesn't "take block away".

This is flat-out wrong. If a player has ST5 and Block, the Wrestler treats him just like a ST5 guy without Block. If the Wrestler is ST3, he needs two assists to have a relatively safe action. Block doesn't apply. If the defender is ST6, the Wrestler needs three assists to get the same odds.

Matt, it's flat out right if you're looking at throwing a 2 die uphill block. ST5 vs ST6 makes no difference to a S3 wrestler. I think you completely missed the point of my post, which is that if you've got wrestle on a S3 guy and throw a block at a big guy - it doesn't matter if he's S5 or S6, and it doesn't matter if he's got block or not. You've got the same odds of taking him down regardless.

If you start adding assists into the equation then obviously things change. I will happily throw 2D uphill blocks at big guys with wrestlers all day long (as the last thing I do in a turn). Wrestle is a fantastic anti-big guy skill.