Big Guys and Boxcars

[cyagen]

One important point forgotten in the Wrestle debate: you will bring him down but it is not a turn over! When my opponent get skull/skull pow against my wrestler lineman, I never use it. A TO is worth the loss of that guy (especially if it is my BG specialist)

ST7 is a big upgrade since you now get unasisted 3d blocks, but the difference between 5 and 6 is relatively marginal.

ST6 indeed lowers your TO chance against other ST5, require 1 assist more to bring you down, but has no impact against ST2, 3 or 4 players (with or without Block). On the other hand, block lowers your TO chances against all players, except ST 5+ players.

So for me, as a general rule, block is better than +1 ST.

However, as many as said, in some cases +1 ST fits better with your style.

[mattgslater]

Wrestle works regardless of if you have Block or not, and often the difference between S6 and S5 won't matter, because you'll be throwing a 2d uphill block.

It's just a good skill vs. Big Guys period. It makes no difference if they have block or not, so no it doesn't "take block away".

This is flat-out wrong. If a player has ST5 and Block, the Wrestler treats him just like a ST5 guy without Block. If the Wrestler is ST3, he needs two assists to have a relatively safe action. Block doesn't apply. If the defender is ST6, the Wrestler needs three assists to get the same odds.

Matt, it's flat out right if you're looking at throwing a 2 die uphill block. ST5 vs ST6 makes no difference to a S3 wrestler. I think you completely missed the point of my post, which is that if you've got wrestle on a S3 guy and throw a block at a big guy - it doesn't matter if he's S5 or S6, and it doesn't matter if he's got block or not. You've got the same odds of taking him down regardless.

If you start adding assists into the equation then obviously things change. I will happily throw 2D uphill blocks at big guys with wrestlers all day long (as the last thing I do in a turn). Wrestle is a fantastic anti-big guy skill.

Really? I'd happily play anybody who's ever happy to throw an uphill block. I've never seen such a philosophy. I've seen uphill blocks that were clearly worthwhile (for instance, if a push generates a successful play, or if you're going after the ball-carrier or opening up a safer block on the ball-carrier), but as a matter of course, half-die blocks are like 3+ dodges: unless it's important, it's extremely dangerous, and the side that makes fewer such rolls usually wins the match.

This is very interesting. My means of dealing with Big Guys are generally to either mark them with Dodge players (elves), or to beat them up with engineered 2d hits from my own ST4-5 players (greenies), or to keep them pinned in zone coverage and give the opponent a good reason to blitz elsewhere (easier versus MA3-4 types). I do see the value of having an uphill block as an arrow-in-the-quiver, but I'm too chicken to be "happy" about resorting to it. And I'd rather use a Block player than a Wrestle player, except maybe against a Block big guy (though I'd be quite willing to use either).

[Khail]

Well, perhaps happy is the wrong word - but if at the end of my turn I've got a S3 Wrestle (or Block) player standing next to a big guy (usually a marker that got pushed last turn), I'd rather take a 2d uphill block on my turn in an attempt to push him away or take him down than suffer a 2d block on his turn. The 3+ dodge analogy is a good one - I'll take that risk at the end of the turn if it benefits me (getting away and stranding a big guy for example).

I like Wrestle more than Block only if the big guy has Block. I'd rather put us both down than neither of us.

Am I seriously out on a limb here? This seems like pretty conventional wisdom to me.

[JaM]

I've done enough 2d blocks against, with Dwarves and CDwarves.
Espescially in tournaments. Sometimes you just want a BG down, and you have a reasonable chance doing that.
Of course it's more the cherry on top sometimes. You obviously dont want the rest of the team being too exposed when you indeed roll that skull. You need to factor your (bad) luck in the "equation", or, being on a low table, just go for the hell of it .

edit: and I really should learn to use wrestle more. I'm in the process of getting the benefits from fend though, so I will learn probably, sometime

[mattgslater]

No, Khail, that's not out-on-a-limb. It just isn't very salient in the +ST-vs.-Block debate.

As "desperation" plays go, a skilled half-die block is hardly the worst, and as end-of-turn plays go it's okay if you have someplace to push the guy and you don't mind the risk of falling down (with Mighty Blow). But...

1: Vs. Wrestle and no assists, the Block/+ST debate is almost totally moot.
2: That's hardly the only way, or even the most important way, that big guys go down. Protecting your big guy from other big guys and from BOB-types is at least as important.
3: The play can be killed cold with one normal skill, Stand Firm. Nobody half-die-blocks a Stand Firm player if there's any alternative whatsoever.

[Khail]

Sure, we've wandered off topic here. Somebody made a point that I disagreed with, and I responded, and here we are.

re: your #3 - I'm curious what you'd do if you had a S3 block/wrestle player adjacent to a stand firm (no block) big guy at the end of your turn. You'd rather stand there and mark him than throw an uphill block, or would you just dodge away? I don't see how Stand Firm makes that big a difference in your decision on weather or not to throw the block - the same number of results knock him down and knock you down, it's just the pushes that leave you standing next to him. Sure, that's the expected result, but isn't that better than just standing around picking your nose?

Worst case you skull out and fall over, which isn't much different from him hitting you on his next turn. This probably frees him up and kinda sucks. Expected result (push) - no change, he hits you on his turn. If you get a bit lucky - you knock him down. I'd probably still throw that block as the last thing I do, especially with wrestle or block vs. no block. Please educate me if I'm wrong on this - though I suppose starting a new thread might be in order.

[mattgslater]

In that case (ST3/Wrestle vs. ST5/SF/(Block or +ST or both or neither)), I think it's very situational. Is my guy a Zombie? He's probably not dodging. Is he an elf? The math is pretty clear going the other way. Is he a Linerat? Then he might decide the 2/3 of a move action and the avoided 4/9 of a nothing (read: getting hit) beats the 1/9 of a knockdown, 5/36 of a both-down, and 1/36 of a "skull" avoided (the difference between a half-die and a dodge). Is he an Orc with a relative +2AV and -2MA? That changes the equation. Prone players fall into parallel camps: the ones who stand at the beginning and the ones who have to debate standing first vs. staying prone until the easy actions are done and then standing-and-dodging when their priority comes up. I think the prone axis has more guys in the zombie/orc camp (stand first always) than the elf/(maybe) rat camp (stand first or stand-and-dodge on priority) while the blocking axis has more guys in the elf/rat camp (dodge or block) than in the zombie/(maybe) orc camp (block or nothing).

Say you have a Human Lineman or some other player where either strategy seems viable. There are still situational concerns. Is this player the only marker on a big guy who might otherwise do something nasty? In that case, might leave him there without acting, because the 11/36 chance of a free big guy is too much to hazard. Likewise, if you need to open a hole, you could do worse than to blitz away the big guy holding down an interior fencepost, so as to widen a formation by putting in a player who doesn't need strictly proper support. But if he has Stand Firm, half-die-blocking him out of position is not really an option. OTOH, if you're out in the middle of nowhere, or if you don't think the big guy is going to hose you if you accidentally free him up, you might as well keep choppin' wood.

[Khail]

I think we're on the same page Matt. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming

[Smurf]

I thought the debate usually centres around 'optimal'. Unless playing ogres, the big guy is not going to come up against lots of big guys. Hence block is superior to ST because it can whack things without the worry of both down.

The wrestler is the big problem for a non block big guy. If both down comes up the wrestler may not choose to use its skill and thus end the big guy player's turn.

A ST6 big guy does not help in this scenario and only benefits when whacking other big guys (which it could use assists for).

If the beasty has block then a ST upgrade makes a difference but then so does dodge! IMO after ST5 there is little benefit, similar to AG5, any more and the bonus is reduced.

[mattgslater]

We have at least 45 discrete voters at this point. Each question has 41 to 45 votes, such a tight range indicating that most respondents probably voted on most of the questions, and there are probably fewer than 50 respondents.

Kroxigor, Mummy, Human Ogre, Troll.: 21-24. Statistically insignificant. This is an open debate, as far as the poll is concerned. I think this is probably the richest vein for further discussion.

Treeman: 9-32. This strikes me as odd. I'd have thought ST7 would be more popular. But it's pretty clear that there's a majority consensus on ST6+Block.

Rat Ogre, Snow Troll: 10-32. Frenzy probably makes a big difference here, as may the increased tendency to act early because WA preserves the TZ on a failure.

Minotaur: 11-30. Horns doesn't seem to be a major factor.

CP Big Guy, Ogre Ogre, Tomb Guardian: 14-31. So while people are about evenly split on whether to take Block or +ST on a 0-1 or 0-2 big guy, and they break 3-1 if he has Frenzy, they break 2-1 if more than 2 are allowed. This makes a lot of sense, as the teams with a lot of big guys often are the ones that have a hard time getting Block spread about.

Beast of Nurgle: 35-10. There seems to be about as much agreement that Tentacles and +ST go together as there is about Block and Frenzy.

[mattgslater]

I thought the debate usually centres around 'optimal'. Unless playing ogres, the big guy is not going to come up against lots of big guys. Hence block is superior to ST because it can whack things without the worry of both down.

There's a lot more to it than that. Big guys who go to the LOS frequently get hit by other big guys. They also frequently get hit by ST3-4 players with exactly two assists, where the one ST point makes a whole die worth of difference. Similarly, it's very easy to engineer one assist, but not so easy to engineer two assists, except from the offensive line on the first turn. Even then, you have to work for it, or invest in Guard. This is doubly true . This lets a ST6 big guy frequently block 3d where the ST5 guy would only get 2d. Against Block or Wrestle, this has a huge benefit. Against rookies, it minimizes the difference.

The wrestler is the big problem for a non block big guy. If both down comes up the wrestler may not choose to use its skill and thus end the big guy player's turn.

Yeah, the unskilled guy may also choose not to use Wrestle, too. And the Block guy will use his skill, and the Big Guy's turn ends anyway. What's your point? Are you arguing that Wrestle is more dangerous against a non-Block player than against a Block player? That's wrong. It is correct that a player with Wrestle is more dangerous against a non-Block player than against a Block player, but Wrestle doesn't play into that at all, in any way. In fact, it's only true because the skill is so situationally worthless that you may get better mileage from abandoning it.

Wrestle's power is its ability to supersede Block and thus waste the TV of Block. It doesn't do that to +ST: you only assume it's valueless because you assume zero or one assists, which isn't a safe assumption at all, though it may be a common state of affairs.

[spubbbba]

re: your #3 - I'm curious what you'd do if you had a S3 block/wrestle player adjacent to a stand firm (no block) big guy at the end of your turn. You'd rather stand there and mark him than throw an uphill block, or would you just dodge away? I don't see how Stand Firm makes that big a difference in your decision on weather or not to throw the block - the same number of results knock him down and knock you down, it's just the pushes that leave you standing next to him. Sure, that's the expected result, but isn't that better than just standing around picking your nose?

Worst case you skull out and fall over, which isn't much different from him hitting you on his next turn. This probably frees him up and kinda sucks. Expected result (push) - no change, he hits you on his turn. If you get a bit lucky - you knock him down. I'd probably still throw that block as the last thing I do, especially with wrestle or block vs. no block. Please educate me if I'm wrong on this - though I suppose starting a new thread might be in order.

Most of the time I'd leave the player there. I think giving a big guy some lino fodder to play with works pretty well. In particular if the big guy has Really stupid or bonehead then there's always the chance he'll fail that or the block then you can walk away.

Even if he's likely to get a pow then it's often better he take out a rookie lineman than tie up better players or provide multiple assists if he has guard. If it's a wild animal big guy then I'll often dodge away but it really depends on where he can get to next turn.

A ST6 Stand firm bug guy can be a huge pain to deal with if you try to knock him down. When playing wood elves you can usually tell if your opponent isn't very goof if he commits several players to taking down and fouling the tree rather than ignoring/matking it with a lino and going after the squisy and more dangerous elves.

[nick_nameless]

Wrestle works regardless of if you have Block or not, and often the difference between S6 and S5 won't matter, because you'll be throwing a 2d uphill block.

It's just a good skill vs. Big Guys period. It makes no difference if they have block or not, so no it doesn't "take block away".

This is flat-out wrong. If a player has ST5 and Block, the Wrestler treats him just like a ST5 guy without Block. If the Wrestler is ST3, he needs two assists to have a relatively safe action. Block doesn't apply. If the defender is ST6, the Wrestler needs three assists to get the same odds.

Matt, it's flat out right if you're looking at throwing a 2 die uphill block. ST5 vs ST6 makes no difference to a S3 wrestler. I think you completely missed the point of my post, which is that if you've got wrestle on a S3 guy and throw a block at a big guy - it doesn't matter if he's S5 or S6, and it doesn't matter if he's got block or not. You've got the same odds of taking him down regardless.

If you start adding assists into the equation then obviously things change. I will happily throw 2D uphill blocks at big guys with wrestlers all day long (as the last thing I do in a turn). Wrestle is a fantastic anti-big guy skill.

This is why I said that wrestle negates block. Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying.

[Khail]

I understand what you're saying. It doesn't though. If the opponent has block or if they don't have block makes no difference. It doesn't negate block, it ignores it. It's just semantics, and not particularly confusing to figure out what you mean, so I should probably just drop it

[mattgslater]

I acknowledge that it's semantic, but I'm not sure that's important. In our world of language, semantics are real things. I think it matters.

My definition of "negates": "Cancels, preempts, renders worthless or deters all uses of." Tackle negates Dodge.

I don't think Wrestle exactly negates Block. There are uses (or rather, tactical non-uses) of Wrestle that work against non-Block players, but not against Block players. That could also be interpreted to mean that against non-Block players the use of Wrestle is sometimes worse than nothing. This is because Wrestle, when used, comes with a cost (going prone) and denies a benefit (no AV roll) as opposed to a knockdown, and because its use may also prevent a turnover for the acting team, for better or worse. I play a lot of Bonehead and Stupid Big Guys, and since they're always acting late in the turn, and have Mighty Blow, I can't imagine somebody not using Wrestle if they had it, just to make me waste maybe an action or two and get a crack at AV9. But I've declined to use Wrestle against Mummies before.

I do think that Wrestle does something very close to negating Block, however, because its main feature prevents some benefits of Block. Do you prefer "counters" or "neutralizes" instead? Because what it really is is a not-quite-universal pseudo-negating of Block. Against a player without Block, there's no time you'd rather have Wrestle than Block. Against a player with Block, you'd usually prefer Wrestle to Block if you really need a knockdown, or if you're more mobile. You'd prefer Block if you really need your TZ, or if you're slow. On-topic, you'd prefer Block against a non-Block big guy and Wrestle against a Block one. Both are always better than nothing.