Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[GalakStarscraper]

I guess the problem can be basically summed up ... you came to the oldest active BB forum ... stated your opinion and found no traction for it and 10 pages later you are still convinced you are going to sell it to us.

Tom

[plasmoid]

Hi Cbbakke,
I consider the bash trinity (piling on, claw, mighty blow) to be one of the best combos in the game, the other being the defensive trinity (block, dodge, sidestep). IMO, not broken, but - and this is where most people will disagree - I think it could be toned down a tad. But I figure I'm in a minority.

Why don't you just do a poll. That's possible here.
It'll give you an idea about the claw-climate here.
Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

He's taking a single example of a single league where a good coach had a very good season and won lots. It's your basic cherrypicked result to prove his point, much like I could use the fact that Arsenal once went a whole season unbeaten to "prove" that they are the best football team in the world.

Somebody asked me to post the league so I did. Let me say that again. I was asked to post the league and I DID. They will look at the info and come up with their own conclusion. This is an example of your basic mild trolling post. I was asked to do soemthing so I did and it is jumped all over.

And you're not using this single biased sample to "prove" that claw is OP? Please...

I ran some numbers on your ideas to change claw to work on AV8 only and all that happens is that AV7 gets a nerf compared to other races. Same with your "MB only works if AV is 8 or more" idea. Was that your intention? To relatively nerf AV7?

[cbbakke]

I like the poll idea. I will work on that.

As for the other comments. I just started on this forum, This thread was in page 8 when I got here, somebody else started it and other people had enough interest in it to carry on the conversation for that period. That is completely unfair and inaccurate way try to portray me.

As for Dodes, I have never said it was proof as a conclusion. I have said it is evidence supporting my theory. I know that far more information has to be gathered to make a conclusion. If you recall, I have been the one trying to do that all along.

What numbers did you run?

[dode74]

As for Dodes, I have never said it was proof as a conclusion. I have said it is evidence supporting my theory. I know that far more information has to be gathered to make a conclusion. If you recall, I have been the one trying to do that all along.

While ignoring the mountains of evidence which run contrary to your hypothesis (it doesn't warrant the epithet "theory" yet).

What numbers did you run?

I looked at both AV break and casualty probabilities for normal blocks, blocks with claw, claw/MB, MB, and then claw (requires 9+ to break) and the same nerfed claw with MB included. I'll give only casualty% stats here as that is the only way to realistically include MB in the calculations.

Code: Select all

Probablity of a casualty - assumes successful block
AV             |   7   |   8   |   9   |  10   |
Normal block   |  6.94 |  4.63 |  2.77 |  1.39 |
MB             | 14.35 | 10.03 |  6.48 |  3.70 |
Claw           |  6.94 |  6.94 |  6.94 |  6.94 |
Claw/MB        | 14.35 | 14.35 | 14.35 | 14.35 |
Nerfed Claw    |  6.94 |  4.62 |  4.62 |  4.62 |
Nerfed Claw/MB | 14.35 | 10.03 | 10.03 | 10.03 |

As you can see, the probability of a casualty drops considerably for claw and for the claw/MB combo for AVs of 8 and above while remaining the same for AV7 - the probability of casualty reduces by approximately 33%. This will result in high AV teams having too low an attrition rate overall - something which will result in an increase in the longevity of AV8+ players relative to lower AV players, increasing the relative value of that higher AV from 8 upwards. My question for you is this: since claw was clearly intended to increase the attrition rate of these higher AV players, what simple (simplicity being a design requirement for JJ as has been stated by Galak - I'll try to find the link if you like) on-field mechanic (the removal of off-field mechanics being a design goal for later LRBs and the CRP) would you use to increase that attrition rate back to where it should be?

[cbbakke]

First on the chart.

If you look at normal block compared to one with mighty blow. The chance of injury is more then doubled at every armor level.

If you look at Claw alone it slighty under doubles at 8 AV and then slightly then doubles at 9 av and it like 5 times more at 10 AV.

when you combine the two you get more then triple chance at 8av of injury compared to a normal block, 5 times higher chance on a 9 AV and 12 times better chance of CAS on a 10 av.

If I recall correctly when you add piling on into the mix it makes the chance of Cas up to around 32% and ko/cas at 55%

Which makes those three skills make it 8 times more likely to hurt an 8 AV. 11 times more likely to injury a 9 AV and 20 some more times more likely to hurt a 10 AV.

The factor that the charts don't showing is other things added to the game. Wrestle and fend help finesse teams take far less damage. A treeman for example is designed for one purpose. Take hits and soak up players to try to protect the weaker players on their team. This skill combination makes it 20 times more likely to be injuried on every block made. Treeman dont get access to block or dodge and for a basher team it is not hard to get them on the ground, but now easy to hurt them.

As for what would I change to add attrition?
i would make claw 8+ and/or not allow it to be added with Mighty blow.
I would make piling on either only work on armor rolls OR if used both players roll an injury OR only on armor rolls but piling on player is automatically stunned. (One of these would actually add CAS rolls and make piling on only worth it to get rid of key players not just a common slaughter tactic.)

I would make Dirty player +2/+2 again and go back to the either the IGMYOU system or go to a different system where the chance of somebody getting kicked out is based on the injury caused.
On a stun or no armor broke 1 in 6 to get kicked out
On a KO 2 in 6 to get kicked out
On a badly injuryed 3 in 6.
Serious injury 5 in 6.
Dead auto kicked out.
This would make the dirty player far more likely to target a high SPP causing attrition and make it tactically used not just spamable. I got fouled 13 times today in a game before the guy got his DP kicked out. he didnt have any bribe either. This may not drastically increase teh number of CAS but it would increase greatly the chance of high SPP getting fouled and removed.

I think there is some good logic to lowering the AV of blitzers for dwarves and orcs to 8. It would make both teams considerably softer. Dwarves only way of winning is to rely on being sturdy and wearing down the other team over time.

the one position I don't have an answer for is the chaos warrior. Lowering their armor to 8 AV just wont work. That team would be too soft then. The only idea I have off hand is not related to chaos warriors exactly but another way to have more CAS and balance claw.

If you have the claw skill your armor is reduced to 7 also. You give up some of your armor to allow your claws to come out to play. You would be a nasty hitter but couldnt take a hit. It would make it a less appealing choice for CW then.

[dode74]

Anyone can take wrestle or fend, not just the agi teams - they are G skills.

I'll add in the PO numbers when I get the chance - I'm off to bed now though.

You mention the "times more likely to be injured", which is the X Factor I introduced on the Cyanide thread and you dismissed. Remember also that this is for successful blocks, and only for those blocks with those skills - that reduces the chances of injury enormously.

You also say "This skill combination makes it 20 times more likely to be injuried on every block made" with reference to a treeman. Remember, that tree has ST 6 and the block needs to be a success. Just as dodge can be used by the agi teams to mitigate damage, high ST does the same by either making good blocks very difficult (ST4 requiring 3 assists) or reducing the number of blocks possible elsewhere (those 3 assisters being unavailable to block elsewhere). There is mitigation in many things.

[cbbakke]

once you have some guards on your team they can get the assists pretty easy. once the tree is on the ground then it has a good chance of staying down and then your players dont have to deal with it again for the drive.

You asked for how I would add attrition but then you didnt respond to it iat all.

[Heff]

First on the chart.

If you look at normal block compared to one with mighty blow. The chance of injury is more then doubled at every armor level.

If you look at Claw alone it slighty under doubles at 8 AV and then slightly then doubles at 9 av and it like 5 times more at 10 AV.

when you combine the two you get more then triple chance at 8av of injury compared to a normal block, 5 times higher chance on a 9 AV and 12 times better chance of CAS on a 10 av.

If I recall correctly when you add piling on into the mix it makes the chance of Cas up to around 32% and ko/cas at 55%

Which makes those three skills make it 8 times more likely to hurt an 8 AV. 11 times more likely to injury a 9 AV and 20 some more times more likely to hurt a 10 AV.

The factor that the charts don't showing is other things added to the game. Wrestle and fend help finesse teams take far less damage. A treeman for example is designed for one purpose. Take hits and soak up players to try to protect the weaker players on their team. This skill combination makes it 20 times more likely to be injuried on every block made. Treeman dont get access to block or dodge and for a basher team it is not hard to get them on the ground, but now easy to hurt them.

As for what would I change to add attrition?
i would make claw 8+ and/or not allow it to be added with Mighty blow.
I would make piling on either only work on armor rolls OR if used both players roll an injury OR only on armor rolls but piling on player is automatically stunned. (One of these would actually add CAS rolls and make piling on only worth it to get rid of key players not just a common slaughter tactic.)

I would make Dirty player +2/+2 again and go back to the either the IGMYOU system or go to a different system where the chance of somebody getting kicked out is based on the injury caused.
On a stun or no armor broke 1 in 6 to get kicked out
On a KO 2 in 6 to get kicked out
On a badly injuryed 3 in 6.
Serious injury 5 in 6.
Dead auto kicked out.
This would make the dirty player far more likely to target a high SPP causing attrition and make it tactically used not just spamable. I got fouled 13 times today in a game before the guy got his DP kicked out. he didnt have any bribe either. This may not drastically increase teh number of CAS but it would increase greatly the chance of high SPP getting fouled and removed.

I think there is some good logic to lowering the AV of blitzers for dwarves and orcs to 8. It would make both teams considerably softer. Dwarves only way of winning is to rely on being sturdy and wearing down the other team over time.

the one position I don't have an answer for is the chaos warrior. Lowering their armor to 8 AV just wont work. That team would be too soft then. The only idea I have off hand is not related to chaos warriors exactly but another way to have more CAS and balance claw.

If you have the claw skill your armor is reduced to 7 also. You give up some of your armor to allow your claws to come out to play. You would be a nasty hitter but couldnt take a hit. It would make it a less appealing choice for CW then.

Edit
really I just want to play a different game.

as an aside I have only played a MB PO spam team once (not chaos so he could not do claw too, he would have)He piled on so often and with so little thought that it was easy to breeze past him. PO puts you on the floor, negates your tacke zones and reduces your next move. Then a legendarily bad player (me) can run 3 goats into your backfield and score (twice). I was giving him players to eat in the knowledge that he would PO and that statistically I would be OK (5/6 times I would not be injured and stuns get to be hit again).

As to your foul idea, if I read it right the more successful you are the more likely you are to be punished for it. Several people spent a long time thinking and working out this game Claw is supposed to put the fear into those rich hard teams. Claw, MB,PO is a problem for you to deal with not to avoid by re-writing the rules.

[dode74]

once you have some guards on your team they can get the assists pretty easy. once the tree is on the ground then it has a good chance of staying down and then your players dont have to deal with it again for the drive.

Block, claw, MB, PO and guard now? What TV are we playing at?
Also, players that are being used on the tree aren't being used on the WDs or catchers. Fine by me

You asked for how I would add attrition but then you didnt respond to it iat all.

You must have missed the bit where I said I was going to bed. Anyway:

i would make claw 8+ and/or not allow it to be added with Mighty blow.

Already gave you the numbers for that.

I would make piling on either only work on armor rolls OR if used both players roll an injury OR only on armor rolls but piling on player is automatically stunned. (One of these would actually add CAS rolls and make piling on only worth it to get rid of key players not just a common slaughter tactic.)

Another nerf, and one that would pretty much kill off PO. It's not like it's a top skill now anyway. What's the problem with "slaughter tactics", anyway? If it's not fun for you then play something else

I would make Dirty player +2/+2 again and go back to the either the IGMYOU system or go to a different system where the chance of somebody getting kicked out is based on the injury caused.
On a stun or no armor broke 1 in 6 to get kicked out
On a KO 2 in 6 to get kicked out
On a badly injuryed 3 in 6.
Serious injury 5 in 6.
Dead auto kicked out.
This would make the dirty player far more likely to target a high SPP causing attrition and make it tactically used not just spamable. I got fouled 13 times today in a game before the guy got his DP kicked out. he didnt have any bribe either. This may not drastically increase teh number of CAS but it would increase greatly the chance of high SPP getting fouled and removed.

It's also not simple, which is what I stated was a design requirement. This would require a whole lot more text, which simply isn't going to make it into the rulebook. GW costs rule in this case.
Furthermore, this DOESN'T deal with the effective nerf to AV7 which I mentioned - it's an across-the-board thing which has the same effect on all players. You need something that increases the attrition of AVs 8 or more, but has no effect on AV7 or less.

[cbbakke]

If you changed the blitzer armor for orcs and dwarves you effectively make the 7 av teams better.

[Pagan]

Fail your Always Hungry roll?

[dode74]

If you changed the blitzer armor for orcs and dwarves you effectively make the 7 av teams better.

You're going to have to explain the logic behind that one (nerf to 2 players != buff for all AV7), and also how it'll increase the attrition of those players still at AV9 back to where they should be.

[cbbakke]

The reason for the claw attrition has been to adjust for basically two teams, Orcs and Dwarves since they are the two high AV teams.

The dwarves would go from 3 8 AV players on the pitch to 5 close to double.
That is going to help other lower AV teams by:
1. Dwarves will be forced to carry more of a bench bloating their tv some.
2. Dwarves will have to protect their blitzers instead of using them to protect runner/slayers.
3. Blitzers are some of the few 3 agility players the dwarves have. Now all their 3 agility players would be easier to hurt.

I am not saying remove claw, just temper out it interacts with with MB and piling on.

For Orcs that is 4 aditional players that are 8 AV on their team which is a pretty big nerf. Their team goes from 1 runner with 8 av to 5 of 11 on the field being 8 av.

Piling on and MB not combing like they do would also be a big buff to 7 av teams.

[GalakStarscraper]

I reference new readers to seek out the current Claw poll before adding to this thread.