Big Guys and Boxcars

[nick_nameless]

I acknowledge that it's semantic, but I'm not sure that's important. In our world of language, semantics are real things. I think it matters.

My definition of "negates": "Cancels, preempts, renders worthless or deters all uses of." Tackle negates Dodge.

I don't think Wrestle exactly negates Block. There are uses (or rather, tactical non-uses) of Wrestle that work against non-Block players, but not against Block players. That could also be interpreted to mean that against non-Block players the use of Wrestle is sometimes worse than nothing. This is because Wrestle, when used, comes with a cost (going prone) and denies a benefit (no AV roll) as opposed to a knockdown, and because its use may also prevent a turnover for the acting team, for better or worse. I play a lot of Bonehead and Stupid Big Guys, and since they're always acting late in the turn, and have Mighty Blow, I can't imagine somebody not using Wrestle if they had it, just to make me waste maybe an action or two and get a crack at AV9. But I've declined to use Wrestle against Mummies before.

I do think that Wrestle does something very close to negating Block, however, because its main feature prevents some benefits of Block. Do you prefer "counters" or "neutralizes" instead? Because what it really is is a not-quite-universal pseudo-negating of Block. Against a player without Block, there's no time you'd rather have Wrestle than Block. Against a player with Block, you'd usually prefer Wrestle to Block if you really need a knockdown, or if you're more mobile. You'd prefer Block if you really need your TZ, or if you're slow. On-topic, you'd prefer Block against a non-Block big guy and Wrestle against a Block one. Both are always better than nothing.

I realize this is getting semantic, but my point was that the statement "+Str can be taken away, but block can't" is not a true statement. Wrestle can bypass block and put a defender or attacker on the ground with a skull-pow. The reason people take block is to get past the skull-pow. It's essentially a +1 on the block die.

Perhaps it does not bypass it well enough to get an armor roll or cause a turnover, but it is a tactical counter. If the argument is "Which is better, +str or block?" and part of that argument surrounds how to counter each progression, then wrestle is as relevant to the conversation vs. block as getting an extra assist is against +str.

[mattgslater]

You are very correct.

FWIW, I think that the offensive benefit of +ST is greater if you already have a big ST edge and don't lack for Block. I think that the defensive benefit of +ST is greater if you plan on taking Stand Firm, or if you play with this guy in such a manner as to be unconcerned with half-die blocks (such as if you put him on the LOS). I think, after reading this, Block is better offensively if you tend to hit early with him, which is most likely to be true of Mummy/TG types and of Wild Animals than it is of the Bonehead/Stupid types. Defensively, Block is probably the better selection if you have a good reason to avoid taking half-die hits and don't plan on taking Stand Firm. That way you can act early with the player, without having to grit your teeth.

Like on a Warpstone Troll: the team has no Cult-Of-Position game, and the player can take Claw on a normal roll. Because there is no CoP threat, no screens of Side Step ST3 or Stand Firm ST4, the relative value of building for bog-down, with ST6/Tents, is much reduced, and the best odds come by swinging the injury math your way.

By comparison, an Orc Troll plays on a team that has an easy time guaranteeing him durable assists. The "killer" track for the Troll peaks out at Block, with nowhere to go from there (don't give me that Piling On bull: he's MA4 and Stupid). By contrast, a bog-down strategy for this player synergizes with the Blockers and Blitzers to create a wicked stymie machine, all full of sharp points of Mighty Blow, and impossible to push out of position.

[nick_nameless]

When I had this choice to make on my Undead team (which I only play for fun in a "open" league where clubs schedule games and track advancements, but there is no structure), I had to make this choice for one of my mummies. I chose the +str.

Full Disclosure: I run both mummies on the LOS with a Zombie in the middle. One mummy is Guard, Stand Firm and the other is S6. This makes my line S5, S4, S6, and once I put Guard on the S6 mummy that's S5, S5, S6. That will be tough to "move off the ball" and really gives me the center position. As things break down off the kick-off set up, I tend to wheel the line towards whatever side the ball is funneling to. And I have a Skelly with kick, so I can usually control that for a turn.

What I like about this is that the S6 mummy makes a great book-end, and people tend to get caught up in getting their big guy matched up on him and trying to work out how they can get enough assists for their 2D block on him. Block would be nice at that point, but he's already doing his job creating attrition elsewhere on the board. Block would not create that same scenario. People work up to the 2D block and most often don't think of trying to throw uphill or even a 1D against a S6 mummy, and so that +1 Str takes another player out of the play and it gives me a place to gum up the works if/when their block on the mummy fails.

+S forces the other player to concentrate a little more on the LOS if they want to break it down. Maybe that's not as important for me when I am playing Slann and fielding a Krox, but it's a nice benefit to have at any point. It really comes down to being able to approach the game differently from a strategic standpoint. In that regard it's like spamming Blodge, Sidestep on Ghouls. It will give your opponent fits.

The essence of what I am saying is that, to me, the choice is about much more than what benefits that die results give you. It's about trying to manipulate what my opponent does on the board.

I can't say that I have played enough teams to really make the case that I would always take +str, but I like what it does for you and it's the only gateway to get to S7, three die blocks all over the place

[Smurf]

That's funny. Typically big ST = low AG. eg Lizards, smack as many skinks as possible, undead hit the in the Ghoulies and their Wights, Vampires, go and smack their thralls.

If I cannot easily get a 2db on a ST player, ignore it and hit something important instead.

[mattgslater]

We have an Undead team in our Champions League that has two ST6 Mummies, one with Grab and one with Block and Multiple Block. He runs a Zombie with ST4 and Guard on the nose. They're just all kinds of ugly against heavy teams (the Necros live in fear of them), though my High Elves seem to be able to pin them down just like any other big guy, because they don't actually have to hit them. The ST6/multiblock guy means his offense is a lot faster, as he likes to drop him in at the center position and hit both defensive ends. Even if the whole DL has Guard, he can still engineer a 2d block on both sides.

As far as pinning big guys down, you still have to get them out of position. Unhittable guys forming a big ol' screen right where you need to go are a problem whether they're killing your men or not, and make it easier for the positionals and Zeds to get in there and do their dirty work. Mummies in particular are easy to neutralize, because they're so slow. But Tomb Guardians are great for space denial.