Norse VS Chaos Dwarves: help needed

[narg]

I'm going to play with my norse against chaos dwarves in the end-of-season cup - probably the worst match-up I could get.

My strategy will broadly be to try to take out the hobgoblins, blitz with the snow troll once the hobgoblins are gone, foul the bull-centaurs and the piling on chaos dwarf whenever I have a reasonable opportunity (it will be hard to get enough assists to get AV below 7 and I have no dirty player so I might not be able to foul at all), put my ST5 lineman in the backfield in defense to intercept ball-carrying bull centaurs passing by, and more generally pray to Nuffle.

I also plan to hire Boomer as I have exactly 60K in inducements, and put him on the LOS in defense. Concerning formations I plan to use the anti-bash formation in defense to at least get my good players to survive the game and on offense I don't really have a plan, moving a cage will be hard due to all the stand-firms and my runners won't be as mobile as usual due to all the tackle so hand-offs and passes should be tough as well.

Any advice? Last time I played against that team I lost 2-0 and I don't think I was particularly unlucky; during my drive my cage got stuck and after a snow troll-caused turnover he blitzed my ball carrier, took him down, picked up the ball with a bull centaur and scored. On his drive he did a few quick casualties and then I got outnumbered and he scored again easily. I did my best to target the hobgoblins but even with mighty blow and piling on I could only stun them.

Here are the teams:

My team (FF10, 3 re-rolls - one of my berserkers got killed in the last game):
Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block
Lineman 6 3 2 7 Block
Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block
Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block, Fend, Tackle
Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block
Lineman 6 3 3 7 Block
Lineman 6 5 3 7 +ST, +ST, Block, Tackle
Thrower 6 3 3 7 Accurate, Block, Dodge, Nerves of Steel, Pass, Sure Hands
Runner 7 3 3 7 Block, Catch, Dauntless, Dodge, Guard, Strip Ball
Runner 7 3 3 7 Block, Dauntless, Dodge
Berserker 6 3 3 7 Block, Frenzy, Guard, Jump Up, Mighty Blow, Piling On
Ulfwerener 6 4 2 8 Block, Frenzy, Guard, Mighty Blow
Ulfwerener 6 4 2 8 Block, Frenzy, Guard, Mighty Blow
Snow Troll 5 5 1 8 Claws, Disturbing Presence, Frenzy, Guard, Loner, Mighty Blow, Wild Animal

His team (FF12, 3 re-rolls):
Bull Centaur 6 4 2 9 Block, Break Tackle, Dodge, Sprint, Stand Firm, Sure Feet, Sure Hands, Thick Skull
Bull Centaur 6 4 3 9 +AG, Block, Dodge, Sprint, Sure Feet, Thick Skull
Minotaur 5 5 2 8 Frenzy, Guard, Horns, Loner, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Thick Skull, Wild Animal
C Dwarf 4 3 2 9 Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Tackle, Thick Skull
C Dwarf 4 3 2 9 Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Tackle, Thick Skull
C Dwarf 4 3 2 9 Block, Claws, Guard, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle, Thick Skull
C Dwarf 4 3 2 9 Block, Claws, Horns, Tackle, Thick Skull
C Dwarf 4 3 2 9 Block, Claws, Guard, Tackle, Thick Skull
C Dwarf 4 3 2 9 Block, Dodge, Guard, Tackle, Thick Skull
Hobgoblin 6 3 3 6 Kick
Hobgoblin 5 3 3 7
Hobgoblin 6 3 3 7
Hobgoblin 6 3 3 7

[garion]

It doesnt really sound like you need advise your game plan sounds solid to me, I personally would foul straight of the bat so on your first turn knock down his three CDs that are on the LOS and foul the best one, apart from that follow your plan. It will not be easy but try and set up a few crowd surfs too.

[Blammaham]

Try to use your Frenzy top push apart his formations and once you get a few of the Dwarfs on their own or outside of the protection of a group then foul him but don't ever foul a dwarf with AV9 and thick skull just on your own, you are more likely to be thrown out than to get him off. His Bulls are great and they won't cause him many turn overs but take a good poke at the Mino early with your troll if you get the chance and the will give you the clear high end ST advantage but don't totaly expose him to a counterattack if you don't have to. The most important thing though, use your Frenzy to spread him out thats the real advantage you have.S

[Carnis]

It's not as bad as it seems, he has 3 claws which do next to nothing vs you. The following players are your targets, try to receive first:

C Dwarf 4 3 2 9 Block, Claws, Guard, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle, Thick Skull
Minotaur 5 5 2 8 Frenzy, Guard, Horns, Loner, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Thick Skull, Wild Animal
Hobgoblin 6 3 3 6 Kick
Hobgoblin 5 3 3 7
Hobgoblin 6 3 3 7
Hobgoblin 6 3 3 7

The CD is a nobrainer, he has the dreaded MB/PO/claws being the only player with PO in that team and you have just 1 fend, kill him if you can, try to isolate him with fend, try to foul him out, you having no dirty player is a big issue so you are probably best off blitzing with the MB/PO & using PO to RR armor, you do this for two reasons - 1: he doesnt get to hurt your PO back if he's prone 2: He doesnt have DP 3: You *really* *really* need to get rid of that MB/PO dorf.

The 2nd big target is that mino, if you can force him to blitz elsewhere while his mino is down its pretty likely its out >1.5 turns per kd (armor could break, he could fail the 4+ WA).

The hobbos are nobrainer targets due to no block, no AV.. You need man advantage on your side from day one, but if you can hit either of the 2 with a 2die + 2die followup (the dwarf, the mino), do it.

Other than that there's not much to worry, the bulls are annoying, so dont let them get too far away on defence & dont leave gaps for break tackle in offence.

Since its the final Id probably buy up to 15 players, having a reserve for 2nd half is better than having boomer on the LOS.

[Datademonen]

why put boomer on the los , there are plenty of claw to ignore his av9.
also a bombadier is just too good a treat against a slow ag2 team, and you even have a disturbing presence to mess with him should he manage to catch the bomb...
having a bombadier will deter him from trying to stall, so even if you cannot stop him it will priobably force him to score faster.

[mattgslater]

That's a wickedly efficient CD team you're facing. I don't like your odds. For one thing, your linemen suck. You don't have much Fend, you don't have a Dirty Player (which means you should only foul if you build an early advantage, either in numbers or in points, against his Thick Skull-heavy team). What, do you fire skilled linos? Or do you have attrition problems?

I'm not of the same mentality as the others. This guy clearly doesn't run a lot of Hobgoblin options, and why should he? Look at those Bulls! Yes, hit the Hobs whenever you can (especially the Kicker), but that's all. Go after the Bull Centaurs, especially on defense. Also any damage to CDs or Minos or the BCs is less bash and more AV7. You must get an early leg up.

Receive first: he'll put the BCs in defensive strongpoints, but he'll protect one on offense. You really want to get as many AV rolls as you can, and it doesn't matter who you're rolling against, unless you're hitting a BC. The real threat on his team is the BCs. You need to get one of them out of the picture, perhaps by siccing the Troll on him, though I might be tempted to keep him tied up with Dwarfs. His odds of KD'ing a Bull aren't bad: 5/6 x 19/12 x 11/36 = (19x11x5)/(6^4x2) = 1045/2592 ~ 40%, comparable in relative value-per-knockdown to the odds vs a Dwarf on a 2d hit, 5/6 x 4x3 x 5/9 = a very golden 100/162 = 5/8 of a knockdown, a difference of about 2/9 of a knockdown or a relative 50%+. So in raw TV terms, it's about equal.

Of course, ST5-boy should find himself a Bull Centaur to molest. It's here where you'll be sorry you didn't take a Dirty Player, but get one down and foul him! ST5 guy is actually better against the +AG one, because he won't dodge away.

If he puts two SF guys on the line, there is no diagonal blocking or chainpushing off Frenzy, but if he uses them as midfielders, do you know how to chainpush off the line of scrimmage with Frenzy only to get extra blocks? It's not nearly as good as Grab, but you can do it if you're up against rookie opposition, and it's not like it's likely to yield a turnover.

Don't sweat PO guy any more than anybody else does. Don't foul him, try to use space to keep him from being too effective, by blocking him away or down on your turn and giving the oppo a reason not to blitz. He doesn't have any +ST or Dauntless, so you can beat up his DL.

On defense, you have no shortage of schmoes to man your DL. Still, I like his odds to grind you. Protect the Troll and Ulfs by putting them in "free" backfield formations that discourage blocking them. Let him have the sidelines, maybe setting your defensive formations one square beyond the WZ marker.

[TheDoctor]

I'm not of the same mentality as the others. This guy clearly doesn't run a lot of Hobgoblin options, and why should he? Look at those Bulls! Yes, hit the Hobs whenever you can (especially the Kicker), but that's all. Go after the Bull Centaurs, especially on defense.

+1.

Obviously he doesn't use the Hobs to score TDs, otherwise they'd be more developed. The BCs are definitely the main target. Try to get as many Blocks on them as you can with your Hitters and that ST5-Lino.
Maybe you can take advantage of all that Frenzy on your team to go after the one that doesn't have SF to push him out of bounds (Juggernaut would have been nice to go after that other BC).

[narg]

Thanks for all the answers so far!

That's a wickedly efficient CD team you're facing. I don't like your odds.

I know, hence the call for help...

For one thing, your linemen suck. You don't have much Fend, you don't have a Dirty Player (which means you should only foul if you build an early advantage, either in numbers or in points, against his Thick Skull-heavy team). What, do you fire skilled linos? Or do you have attrition problems?

In my league you can choose who gets the MVPs and in my team the linemen don't have MVP rights. My two skilled linemen got there purely through casualties and touchdowns.
I lost nine linemen in thirty games but I don't know if you can talk about "attrition problems", sounds perfectly normal to me especially as they're always on the LOS and they don't have apothecary rights.

I'm not of the same mentality as the others. This guy clearly doesn't run a lot of Hobgoblin options, and why should he? Look at those Bulls! Yes, hit the Hobs whenever you can (especially the Kicker), but that's all. Go after the Bull Centaurs, especially on defense. Also any damage to CDs or Minos or the BCs is less bash and more AV7. You must get an early leg up.

Sure he doesn't use the hobgoblins but they still provide assists and create tackle zones, and the odds of getting them off the pitch with my mighty blow - piling on berserker are more than ten times higher than the odds of getting one of the bull centaurs off the pitch with my ST5 lineman...I can blitz them with my snow troll but as he's got neither block nor tackle it's going to be a struggle.

but you can do it if you're up against rookie opposition

Well as you might have guessed (from the FF12 for example) my opponent isn't really a rookie...Or were you talking in terms of players? Usually he puts the stand firms on the LOS.

Don't sweat PO guy any more than anybody else does. Don't foul him, try to use space to keep him from being too effective

Yeah that's what I did in the last game, he was on the right so I attacked on the left specifically to avoid him and it kind of worked, with his MA4 he was out of the game for most of the first half. I think he only threw three or four blocks in the game, but he still managed to cause two casualties...

why put boomer on the los , there are plenty of claw to ignore his av9.

For three reasons: 1) if a player has to die, I'd rather it be an induced player, 2) throwing bombs usually doesn't work and on top of that I'll already be using actively another loner - the snow troll so it's better if this one keeps a passive role, and 3) my opponent usually doesn't cage, he likes to build a screen with a bull centaur carrying the ball behind on his own, so throwing a bomb wouldn't be very efficient.

Generally speaking removing the bull centaurs and the piling on dwarf would of course be ideal but as they're AV9 with thick skull it kind of sounds like wishful thinking. Sure I'll block them and foul them if I have the opportunity but I'm not too optimistic on that front. This strategy sounds a lot like praying to Nuffle to me! ;o)

Blammaham's idea of pushing apart his formations sounds good, I might try that although the stand firms obviously won't help in that regard - I wish my snow troll had Juggernaut.

Crowd surfs are I think more in his favour than mine - he's got a minotaur with frenzy and stand firm so if I crowsurf his players he can crowdsurf mine in return, while if he crowdsurfs me with his minotaur I can't retaliate.

Thanks again for your answers, much appreciated.

[mattgslater]

I agree that if you can match the PO Berserker on a Hob, you should. Matchups matter a lot. In a similar vein, Ulf or Runner on the Mino, get rid of his butt. That'll give you a big ST advantage, more than enough to account for his (then-)small Guard advantage.

No outrageously strong opinion on Boomer vs. new lino. Have you considered a TRR?

I definitely think it's worthwhile to get linos to their first skills. You could use a kicker and a Dirty Player, and any lineman with a stat increase is always welcome. Besides, doubles means either Guard (can't have enough) or Grab (very good on Norse and very hard to get any other way).

Snow Troll on BC is 40%. Snow Troll on CD, Mino or Hob is 62%. It's better to hit the CDs or BCs with the Snow Troll than to hit the Mino or Hobs. I doubt that's controversial.

What I was saying about a "rookie" line is that if his DL doesn't have any Stand Firm, you can engineer extra blocks on the backfield without Grab, albeit not as efficiently. Alas, he does, and you can't.

You're going to have to own the interior, keep his Stand Firmers from building unbreakable formations. SF is best in multiples, and four of them can make life really hard.

Most important, if you win the coin-toss, receive!

[JaM]

I really like to know how this went though.
And you should indeed skill-up some linos. Not everyone is fodder...

[Smeborg]

I don't agree with a strategy of fouling high armour players with Thick Skull - that would work in your opponent's favour. Of course I do not preclude such players being targets of opportunity.

With only 13 players, your opponent is vulnerable to the numbers game. The Hobgoblins are particularly weak and undefended, so I suggest you target them. Your opponent will start each drive with only 3 AG3 players, of which 2 will be Hobgobs. If you remove them, he has only 2 viable ball carriers left (the Bulls).

A Babe may be a better inducement over the course of a game. A SW Star only lasts one drive.

If you can knock down one or both Bulls regularly, you would maintain a significant advantage in aggregate MA.

I like your Stripper. He ought to force your opponent to use the AG2 Bull as the Runner, rather than his AG3 colleague.

Don't be shy about swarming your opponent at the right times on both defense and offense, especially isolated players. You have a ST advantage with your ST5 Lino (I assume he is also your ball carrier) and equality in Guard. If you can break the game down into lots of 1 on 1 situations, it will tend to favour you (you will get the ball and/or score before you suffer much damage).

Hope that helps and good luck.

[grampyseer]

I wouldn't foul an av9 thick skull player unless I had a BIG gang of guys around him.

Don't be afraid to crowd push. Just remember to move a safety in after the fact to stop the minotaur from getting a clear line. Honestly, your best bet would be to suck this guy into blitzing with the minotaur frequently.

As the others have said, hunt the bull centaurs..they're the real threat.
Pound on hobgoblins as targets of opportunity, as they'll squish easily.

Don't be so afraid to take a casualty that you don't make a play. Teams like this often seem scarier than they really are. If he has you intimidated into playing overly conservative.......it's already over.

I'm not sure about taking a Star player for the sole purpose of hoping that he gets cas'd on the LOS.....Can't norse take a saw?

Good luck

[mattgslater]

Fouling a Thick Skull AV9 player with an extraneous 50k piece is okay, if you've already got a numerical advantage and it's not too late in the game. You'll get ejected more often than you'll take him out, and you're unlikely to generate a KO, but if you lose a Norseman dropping a Bull Centaur, that's just awesome.

Fouling for numbers doesn't work well in the current ruleset, and is even worse against Chaos Dwarfs, and even worse than that when you don't have a Dirty Player.

[Blammaham]

Fouling for numbers doesn't work well in the current ruleset, and is even worse against Chaos Dwarfs, and even worse than that when you don't have a Dirty Player.

Off topic slightly but I've had good success fouling early and often for numbers with a CD team with DP on only one Hobgoblin. Been doing for the last 20 or so games and it has worked far far better than I thought it would, though often being a caging running team I almost always have a prime candidate at my feet which I'm sure helps.S.

[narg]

I don't agree with a strategy of fouling high armour players with Thick Skull - that would work in your opponent's favour. Of course I do not preclude such players being targets of opportunity.

That's the plan, I won't foul unless I have a bull-centaur or a piling-on dwarf at the feet of three or four of my players.

A Babe may be a better inducement over the course of a game. A SW Star only lasts one drive.

Mmh I bought and painted the miniature of Boomer a few months ago but I never got to use it in a game as my team usually has the highest TV - as one of my berserkers died in the last game I'll finally get enough inducements to get Boomer but I guess that it would indeed be wiser to go for a Babe...

You have a ST advantage with your ST5 Lino (I assume he is also your ball carrier)

I've got a good thrower who usually carries the ball as far as he can and scores himself if it's possible. If he gets stuck (for example because a stand firm minotaur just blitzed a cage corner and is in contact with him) I like to use Nerves of Steel and Accurate to make a pass to a nearby player who then legs it. So the ST5 lineman won't necessarily have the ball at the start of the drive but he will probably end up with it.

Don't be so afraid to take a casualty that you don't make a play. Teams like this often seem scarier than they really are. If he has you intimidated into playing overly conservative.......it's already over.

That maybe be an issue alright, it's my favorite team and I'd like my players to survive. Last time when he got my ball carrier down I still had a chance to recover the ball but it was in between a bull centaur and the sideline so I had to make a 4+ dodge, a 4+ pick-up with my thrower and then a pass or another dodge to get out and I chickened out as I thought that the odds were against me and a turnover there would just get my thrower off the pitch. I just hoped that my opponent would fail to pick up the ball on his turn or that he'd fail a dodge but he didn't.