Defending against Elves (Low TV)

[gollumullog]

Hey all,

It looks like I'm going to be playing in a league almost entirely dominated by elves (of all flavours). The way our league is structured, I'll have 10 games, and probably have 5 games in a season against "finesse" teams, so mostly elves, and I would love to hear thoughts opinions about how to defend against them.

Specifically when elves are receiving, what are some good set-ups, suggestions for covering backfield, where to apply pressure, etc.

I have limited experience against elves, and find that once they get in my backfield only a luck interception can stop them

I'll most likely be playing Humans or Undead, and we will be starting fresh at TV100.

Note: once we finish our first season we get promoted to B-league, where the majority of teams are bashy, so taking tackle/diving tackle on everyone doesn't make tons of sense. I'm looking more about different plays, how to cover, where to advance, how many to leave back, etc.

All suggestions/links greatly appreciated.

[Smurf]

What team are you playing?

The obvious one is a 2 deep collum defence. Stop the pesky guys nipping down the wings; especially the wood elves.

High and Dark have AV8 and a slower move. High Elves have a safe throw option and Dark Elves have stab guys and frenzied players.

Elf teams, I'm trying one out this season, have NoS catchers. The blitzers come with sidestep, which can be a pain.

Read the play books, so far we have 75% covered, maybe less because of my wreckless style.

Slowing them down is what it is all about. Don't chase Blodgers unless you have tackle. Work the attrition against the line, this means the positions have to go in their place.

If you have a big guy put it on a 2 deep wing, the elves may not want to go down there and load up the other wing with decent players. Just let the line take it's beating, it may force the elves to go down the middle where you can tie them up. Remember, make then dodge into tackle zones or away from the their end zone. Use target blitzes if you cannot get to the ball carrier and hit a position player.

TV may spin you a favour, so if you have lots a halfling hot pot can upset their game or look at taking cards to mess up their game plan.

If you lose against 3-x then you are doing ok, lower the better. It's the 4+ you have to avoid because elves will excel.

[mattgslater]

Tackle is the best anti-dodge skill, but spammed Stand Firm and/or Side Step and a fair share of Guard can make it very hard to break through your formations. Mighty Blow is also a good strategy for Blitzers and Wights, as it works best against AG teams and functions as an SPP accelerant, and you can spam it easily because you have some to start with. I've done both strategies, and both work beautifully against AG, while retaining some real utility against bash. I suspect the MB strategy is more popular, but I think coaching predilections are the main factor.

Humans:
A Catcher with Wrestle, then DT, then SS, then Jump Up. Block is often thought to be a better marker skill than Wrestle, but not on ST2, where the blitz may come from the carrier himself (especially when you have Side Step).

A couple Blitzers with Guard are a huge priority. After that, either Mighty Blow then Stand Firm, or Stand Firm then something else. The first Guard guy to get a second skill should take Grab, so you can threaten backfield chains (great vs. elves and rats) and 1TTDs.

Building a Thrower as a true passer with Accurate and KOR lets you deliver the ball to a downfield cage, more important against Bash. By all means build that guy, but start by building your first Thrower as a carrier with Block and Fend.

Wrestle for a Lineman, Dirty Player for another, Block for the rest. Guard on doubles.

Undead:
A Wrenzy/Tackle Ghoul would be great, but the others should start with Block. Get a Block/SH Ghoul to counter strippers, and get SS as the second skill on the other two; I'd go Block/SH, Block/SS, Wrestle/Frenzy, Block/SS. Get Wights with SF, MB or Guard (which one is a matter of taste; Guard-SF or MB-SF would be my preference. Guard-SF for the Mummies, Block on doubles (and as a first skill comes instead of Guard; once he gets SF he can lock out the interior instead of dominating at end). But you have to work to keep scoring with those Ghouls, because you get great value from their skills, and because rookie Ghouls get hurt a lot. Blodge/SS really helps keep them alive.

[gollumullog]

Thanks for the hints so far, but I was hoping for more in lines of setup and how to prevent movement, rather than skill choice.

I find once a few elves break through you are kind of effed, unless you apply at least 2 players to mark them (to cut their catch chance and give a possible interception).

I assume by 2 deep column defence you mean: 2 rows of 2 players on each wing, and 3 on the line spread out, with the wings 2 squares back in case of quick snap?

[sunnyside]

First and foremost, and I'm really quite surprised the earlier posters didn't mention this, stopping them on offense is something you'd like to do, but you should NOT count on it to win the game.

Instead you're looking for the two one grind. So if they recieve first and score, no biggie, just make sure you score on your drive. To that end some coaches will focus more on rushing the thrower than trying to shut down the recievers. If he wants to make a 3+ pass and a 2+ catch to score early let them. More time for you to reach the endzone, and even with re-rolls they will occassionally blow it. Other coaches do seriously try and defend. Others are just interested in trying to cause as many casualites as they can (often you'll have a bench and they won't, but they will have a super expensive something or other to hit and foul).

Anyway what's important is the next half where you recieve. The idea here is to dominate the bash game, and score...on your turn 8. Now you just have to defend against a 1TTD attempt (you'll want to study up on how to defend against that).

This is commonly called the 2-1 grind.

Another thing is to make 'em roll. Yeah they can dodge away on a 2+ and they have the dodge skill. Eventually snake eyes come for us all. For example kicking shallow often force them to either cage or make some rolls. Try that. Setting up with a "stack" defensive formation makes 'em roll to get into the backfield if they can't bust your line of scrimmage.

The only downsiide to this is that when their 45th 2+ with re-roll hands them some snake eyes, you can be sure they'll say they lost because of dumb luck.

[Greyhound]

Stopping elves score is like trying to stop a wave with your bare hands... you just can't

I therefore focus on making it a series of dodge rather than a straight roll. Mark every player, make it a game of 1 die block for them rather than a series of two die block for you (if you have the AV advantage).

I focus on winning by only one TD, so don't sweat too much if they score, just make sure you don't loose the ball when you receive. Take little risk, and take your time. Be certain to capitalise on an early turn over. If you play bashy you know that double skulls happen, so make sure that the elf gets his double 1, they can't reroll that.

I'd read the Nurgle playbook, and adapt some of the slimy tactics.

[atropabelladonna]

For early TV teams I would try to do the following

Undead vs. Elves

Crush them. Play the 2-1 grind game. The elves don't have much dodge (aside from Wood elves, you biggest problem). They will fall to your two mummies. Run the ball with a ghoul and cage.

Humans vs. Elves

I would start trying to grind, but it may not work well. Humans are flexible, so you may be able to match them when it comes to scoring. Also, humans have a wide variety of starting line ups. If you are playing a blitzer heavy, running line up you will do a bit better at bashing. If you play lots of catchers, I feel you will have a tough time out scoring the elves. But it will be close. And keep a catcher down field as a threat at all times.

Specific elf teams

Dark elves are the slowest and will often try to fight you. You should be fine. They are also expensive so he may not have many positionals. The blitzers are the biggest threats early on and can have dodge early.

High elves lack skills at the start, so take advantage of that. Target the catchers, if he has any.

Pro elves have weak line men that are easy to grind. He will have more positionals which are better than the Dark and high elf positionals. I would target the catchers and linemen and grind him.

Wood elves are the toughest to stop. Grinding is your best option but the wardancers are a problem. Force him to leap into a cage. When he fails (and he may not, curse those elves), hurt the wardancer. Foul, do anything, get them off the pitch. You blitzers / wights to target catchers. Ignore the tree.

[juck101]

grinding on elf is a good idea. It forces them to score at times and wins it over 16 turns.

I also agree you dont need to STOP them. Just force your strategy over theirs and you win. They may want to stall out on offence so actually I would try to make sure you have 1 safety back that can cover your endzone after the first turn. This trick should pressure them a little.

Elf are more likely to fail on a 1 roll something than any other race so dont forget elf can fail, just acknowledge that most commonly they will make the mistake rather than you creating it if they fail a drive.

Otherwise play a nice long 2-1 game and it should be simple

[Smurf]

If you are playing Nurgle you should have the anti passing sorted.

When I said colum defence, yes 2 in in wing in colum, 2 on the edge of the wing in collum leaving 5 3 free spaces in the middle. This means your 3 up front need to be together. If you have the ST4 dudes then 3 up front. Put the beast (if you have one) on the edge of the wing... so this means, in theory, the elves would avoid this guy and attempt tp go down the other wing. Knowing where they are going helps. Play the beast a denial piece, if he doesn't have to move, don't move him!

[mattgslater]

Playing Undead and Humans, the grind is a fine goal, but you need more than that. Neither of those teams is an indomitable cage team. Undead are frighteningly good at hedging, but they don't OSPT nearly as well as Dwarfs or Orcs, and your guys are much easier to take out of the action (even if Regen works, that's one Zombie who's not throwing blocks and pulling off assists). Humans can be built into a good grind team, but early on they don't have the ST or AV to play that game reliably. You have the speed with either team to either force quick TDs or turn the ball over. Beating elven offenses is hard, but not impossible. The real trick is to keep them in front of you, and if possible, to corral them into a box on one side, where you can hammer them without mercy. You can cope with one breakaway by positioning well, and most teams that are forced to do crazy stuff to break out can break away with one guy. Stopping an elven score is at best a 50/50 proposition, but if you try and fail, you can usually force a quick score, which puts the onus of the game on your caging vs. his cage-breaking. If you succeed, you should win handily, and will probably inflict a lot of casualties. The major upside is that if you score a T8 TD on defense, your opponent has no recourse in that half. In the first half, this means that you can play any offense you want, because even if you score in, say, T14, your opponent won't be able to recover from a 2-0 deficit in three turns (and if he does, it'll be the stuff of legends, and you'll tie the game anyway).

I'd take Undead over Humans in this case, as driving elves into Mummies is a great way to win. Humans are like elves without the AG. That's sometimes a lot of fun, but if you're just talking about beating AG, take the roster with 3 Ghouls to start, and get MB as the first skill on at least one of your Wights. Let the Ghouls funnel the action into the elf-breakers. Once you have a ton of MB, start receiving first against 10-11 man teams, so you can do more damage. Until then, kick first.

As far as defensive and offensive formations go...

Defense: You want to be good at holding out, with sideline to sideline defenses that leave safety players. Zigs for Humans, and either Zigs-building-into-inverted-Zigs or Zigs-into-Arrowheads-into-Crossbows for Undead. Positioning skills are key on players who can take them and play coverage (Blitzers, Ghouls, Wights). Usually, this is second-skill territory, after Block (Ghouls), MB (Wights or Blitzers), or Guard (again, Wights or Blitzers). For this reason you have to scheme to score with these guys, meaning your decision as to which players play free should be dictated by who can get to 6 or 16 SPP on a TD, with maybe one of two or three free spots dictated by who's the best coverage blitzer (wow, that term is oxymoronic in American football, but fits nicely in BB; in AmF, "blitzing" means rushing the passer with at least four other pass rushers, and if you're rushing, you're not in coverage).

Offense: You want to cage up and grind effectively. With Humans against non-Wood Elves, you can sort of play that QP game, where you decide where to cage after your front 9 have gone to work on their hits and loose formations, and you try to lure the pass-rush downfield. Undead can't do that, and you need to get the ball, cage, and hedge the cage until it can meet up with the line, which might be T2 (you can't chance handoffs until you get to the line). This means directional blocking has to be rather vanilla, and you should use your mummies in the 2-column against 101 lines. The play-side guy makes the #3 block at 3d, and the off-side guy is either free to blitz or is part of the blocking formation if the defender doesn't go down quickly, and then forms a screen with the other Mummy when that action is handled.

Both: Keep a free player at all times, within blitzing range of any potential breakaway. Hedge that player out so he can't be blitzed, and so marking him takes multiple bodies. Optimally, you should do this with your blocking formation, so as to preserve manpower. Yes, this can hang you out on skulls, but having at least three TRRs and not doing anything stupid should save you in more than 90% of your turns. You may ignore this rule if outnumbered by more than one man, but by then you're in trouble anyway. Building a guy for this role is a great idea, because Wrackle, Wrenzy, Frenzy/SF, whatever, all have clear offensive applications and alternate defensive applications. Nobody does it like a Beastman, but Human Blitzers, skilled linos and Ghouls are good players to do this with. One other trick is to build a whole lot of guys into that role as a secondary thing, so whoever's in position does the job. With Orcs, I like a Frenzy Blitzer early, but eventually I have so much MB/SF/Block that I can put down formations that simply don't allow for realistic breakaways given the resources at hand (it takes 5-7 games, usually).

[Wanchor]

The 2-1 grind is probably the way to go, but don't leave yourself in such a position where you can't provide enough pressure on the ball carrier to stop him from stalling. If he'll score, fine, but don't let him take all half to do it.

Also, if he should leave multiple receives in the backfield (he probably will) don't hesitate to mark them with a Catcher (assuming you'll choose humans). He'll force a -1 penalty to receive the ball, but his own odds to intercept won't be affected because they're already so marginal (one out of six, but twice due to Catch).