Ok, you've set up in a Ziggurat... now what?

[PorkSol]

I've read up on the various Defensive formations and they do help in the first couple of turns, but...

How do you actually play Defense after that? (let's forget about leaping stripball cage breakers for now and stick to the super basics)

Do you try to maintain the formation after the first few turns?

Do you try to maintain similar formations on the fly, always fencing him out from the endzone, not just with a screen but with multiple tacklezones?

Do you somehow pick him apart using... your single blitz?

Do you walk your guys up next to the opponent's men in hopes of getting them a chance to block next turn?

I've been avoiding walking my men up to get blocked, but this means I only get a single blitz per turn, while he is mauling 3 of my guys on the LOS and getting a blitz. When I do walk guys up, none of them stay standing to get off a block next turn, unless they're strength 5 and the opponent can't dodge away.

The problem seems to be that the men on the line of scrimmage are essentially never going to do anything but stand up to get blocked again, or possibly try to dodge away and flop over.

The offensive player starts out getting 4 blocks, while the Defender should only get one, unless one side decides to walk men up and and try to stay standing through the opponent's turn to get in a block.
If the guys on the LOS can't dodge away, then the offensive player is going to keep getting blocks on them over and over, while the defender is only getting a blitz.

I find I can keep tackle zones between the defender and the endzone for several turns, but ultimately his numerical advantage (due to three of my men being blocking dummies) means that he can walk enough of his men up onto one of my defenders that I can't provide the assists to knock them back off, so the offensive player gets to block on his turn.

Not to mention the snowball effect when the guys on the LOS start to leave the field, freeing up even more of his players.

I have a feeling I'm not getting something fundamental about defense.

If anyone can recommend any threads or possible fumbbl replays which would illustrate the idea better, it would be appreciated. I've read up on the defensive setups already though, I'm more confused about what comes after that.

[Joemanji]

Excellent questions. I might see about trying to answer some later.

[dwbailey]

The answer to your question is not a simple one and HIGHLY dependent on what team you are playing and what team your opponent is playing. If you are a bash team playing against a finesse team (dwarves vs elves for example) you want to get right up next to them and force them to run away. The more dice they have to roll the more likely they are to fail and hopefully leave players in tackle zones for you to hit. This is coupled with making sure to mark and/or knockdown any receivers they run into your backfield. If you are playing the opposite matchup, again elves vs dwarves , the dwarves will try to cage and roll down the field. Against a cage when you are a finesse team you have to screen the cage as to hinder their movement and slow them down even more. Place a screen of players around their cage so that one blitz does not enable the whole cage to move, dodging out all of your players so that they are only getting the one blitz as well. Trying peeling off corners of the cage with your blitz, but don't over extend and get bashed in the process. In either situation immediately pounce whenever there is a miscue with the ball or the ball carrier is left open for a blitz.

Defense is totally subjective to the teams involved. How I recommend looking it at is to figure out what you would want to do on offense if you were playing as your opponent and work to prevent that from happening. Do this by playing to your teams strengths and your opponents weaknesses. If your opponent wants to hit you, don't let them, if they want to run away from you, make them roll for it. I can't stress enough the importance of applying pressure to the ball and ball carrier. Once they have the ball, the only way to stop them is by hitting them or making them roll dice. I know that this answer is rather generic and I am not providing any set plays or formations, but in Blood Bowl the offense has the initiative so the defense has to react to what they are doing. I personally feel that defense is more instinctual than pre-programmed.

As far as your specific questions, I do not walk my players into contact unless I have a distinct strength, armour, or skill advantage over the person I am standing next to or I am covering an assist for something very important. (except for the poor schmo who's job it is to stand next to their big guy and keep him occupied)

As far a screens go, If you can funnel the receivers or cage towards a widezone, the sideline can become your ally. Once they get in scoring range, remember that the ball carrier can blitz so try and keep two players along his most advantageous path to the endzone.

I never rely on any specific formation after the kick-off instead completely reacting to the events of the game. Again, look at what you would do on offense and try to set your players up to stop that. You will miss plays early on, but as you gain experience you will see most logical offensive options your opponent has. Doesn't mean they won't occasionally throw a long bomb from a tomb guardian to a tomb guardian, but hey if you have shut them down to the point they are willing to try that, your defense is doing pretty well

Your single blitz is your most important asset. Use it wisely. I spend most of my opponent's turn trying to figure out if there is anyway I can hit the ball carrier on my next turn. I will (almost) always take a 1die blitz on a ball carrier over a 2die blitz elsewhere.

Again, this is rather generic but I hope it helps...

[TuernRedvenom]

Wow, this question is near impossible to answer.
The big advantage of the Zig is IMO preventing a quick td by shutting down the flanks (as well as protecting some of your players from a blitz).
What you do entirely depends on a number of factors:
1) what kinds of teams facing of.
2) what the opponent achieved in his first turn: did he go for the fast score, cage, wide screen? Did he leave a flank open? Did he manage to pick up the ball.
3) where the kick went.


When to pressure:
* if the kick went deep or they missed the pickup and you have a fast team put pressure on his backfield. In general this is always a good idea vs teams that like to have a thrower or fast player hanging back out out of range. This forces them to move the ball forwards and prevents them of having the luxury to wait and make their move when they want to.
* If I think I can outmuscle the opposition I might move into contact. I will only move into contact if the opposing team cannot easily block you off again. This means they either can't get easily 2 die blocks on you (set your Guard players in the middle of the line, high STR players at the end of the line). Or you have positioning skills like Blodge SS or SF so that they need a knockdown or otherwise you get into annoying positions. There's not much point in lining up a Blodge SF player against a STR 4 player if in the case you don't get knocked down still can't do anything usefull with it next turn though.

limit his options:
Set up screens that limit the options of where to move with his team. If he moves into contact block them off if you can, fall back and regroup if you can't block.

Where to blitz:
If there are no direct scoring threats I will use a blitz to get a players into their backfield if the ball is still deep. If they have receivers set up then you need to blitz one of them. Some teams can't pass well (like lizardmen) in this case it's usually better to blitz the intended handoff target if you can reach it and leave the players which are out of handoff range marked with a single player.
If neither of these are options just make a blitz to jockey for position or to put a dangerous player down.

What to always take into account:
when you move your line up and set a screen always think about the handoff threat. Can he handoff to a player that can move past your line into your backfield into a position that makes it very hard for you to get to him. If so, keep a safety.

So basically if you can put pressure without overextending yourself go for it! If you can make him reacting to you you're halfway there. Sometimes that's just not possible (yet) so limit his options untill he needs to make a high risk play to score (the typical example here is the elven screen in front of a cage).

All very vague, but you could write a book about this if you go into detail.

edit: on the LoS punching bags, you can use your blitz to free them up. Als a failed Dodge into a supported position is often a better option then to get up and get smacked again next turn.

[B SIDE]

Coach wrote a great introductory article on the subject of stopping common offensive running formations ("cages"), and was kind enough to post it here:

http://bbtactics.com/cage-breaking/

Everything on that site is good reading. When I came back to Blood Bowl after a 10 year hiatus I read everything he'd posted there, and I'm glad that I did. I understand that this Coach fellow is a regular contributor to these forums as well.

[mattgslater]

I started this post about two hours before I finished it. I haven't read any replies.

You must attack the ball, and you must do it early. It's not a matter of just getting one hit to his four. You have to break the cage and/or mob it in the backfield.

It sounds like you play a lighter team. In that case, get pressure immediately! Kick is a big deal. If you can force the offense to cage up in the backfield, you can usually keep LOS players all on their lonesome. That means you're fighting five guys and six guys, rather than eleven. Even if you can only force the offense to hand off behind the cage and run into it, you have doubled your chance of getting a recovery score. Ditto if you can mark the obvious ball-carrier and keep him clear of guys who could take a handoff. Even if they block your guys, you're in position to bust them up on the next turn. Once the ball is in the cage and going downfield, you have a harder task at hand.

Getting the ball out of the cage is a different matter, and is not nearly as easy to do. It's not impossible, but again, you should do it as quickly as you can. If all you can do is use your blitz to maximize the number of blocks, that may help. Perhaps, if you can't reasonably assault the ball, you can blitz a guy into blocking position, to maximize the chances of a knockdown? The goal really is to bog the cage down without marking, long enough to get in. If you don't have good ST and AV, you can't be afraid of a risky cagebreak: getting the ball away early saves lives. Scoring with linemen helps in this regard by reducing your body count (and getting you Kick faster).

Different advice for heavy teams.

[PorkSol]

Thanks guys.

I'll keep my comments short for now as I'm off to work but...

The funny/sad thing is I'm actually playing Orcs/Undead, not lighter teams. I'm especially hopeless with the Orcs, supposedly a top defensive team. With the undead my Block mummy is a bit of a crutch that keeps things a little more even.

Typically my strategy has been to set up in a Ziggurat or similar, then as the play develops, keep hedging out all his men with multiple tackle zones (not just a screen), using my blitz to counter his blitz and/or push away men that he's moved into contact with mine, trying to avoid giving up blocks

So far I can keep teams from scoring for 5+ turns doing this, but eventually the snowball effect I mentioned means I get overstretched and one of my men can't free himself from contact and I start to get blocked.

After that it's only a matter of time until he is a blitz and a dodge (or just a blitz) away from scoring.

And the bad part is I never had a shot at the ball unless he turned over and reacted very badly to it.

I've been avoiding attacking the ball too aggressively, as the Orcs are so slow that it is easy to get out of position if you over commit and he moves the ball sideline to sideline with a handoff.

But I'm clearly doing something wrong, heh.

[dwbailey]

With those teams you should not be afraid to mix it up. How developed are your teams? Do your Black orcs have block? any guard? With Orcs you can really press a cage if you are playing an opponent who cages. Though not "fast" your blitzers are also fast enough to be able to help you recover should they sneak the ball carrier through. If you have positioned right, even in contact they should not be able to break away. Be careful with an open handoff target though. Remember the strength 4 BOBs should out strength most opponents, so if you have pressed adequately, your opponent should only be able to get 2 die your choice or 1die blocks against them. Remember that your first turn of engagement should be about containment and positioning and the next turn is when you unleash the hitting. If you start a turn with one of your players adjacent to one of the cage corners you should be able to hit the ball carrier on your turn. With Undead, you can use your mummies as roadblocks up the middle and the press from the side with your wights and zombies. Hopefully you will have a ghoul ready to run in and grab the ball if you pop it loose. Against finesse teams, use your orc blitzers, wights, and ghouls to pressure any receivers and the ball carrier, while your BOBs, Mummies and Zombies Control the middle of the pitch and force your opponent to commit to one side. This should help with your limited movement. Just make sure not to over pursue and be wary of the field reverse. Really don't be afraid to mix it up with your orcs, that is what they are designed to do. Unless you are going up against a developed chaos team with tons of Mighty Blow/Claw you have AV9 and are very survivable. If they spend their entire turn knocking you down, they did not advance the ball and you will usually just be able to stand up most of your players. As the scrum continues their cage will often begin to break down or at the least leave an opening for you. And hit, hit, hit. Don't lose all sense of positioning, but if you can get 1 or 2 players up on them it makes your positioning and pressure that much easier.

Again rather generic, but I hope it helps a little...

[mattgslater]

Use Blockers to mark players, and try to position your ST3 guys so they deny assists to opponents without getting hit. A Blocker singled up on a ST3 guy is probably not going down unless the opponent moves up a couple guys to hit him. You may find your Blockers drop a lot on the first turn, and you kind of have to trust in AV9. But after that, you can almost certainly engage them so as to make it very hard to block.

As I mentioned earlier, you can use your blitz to set up additional blocks or to deny blocks to your opponent. With light teams, this is an ancillary gimmick, but for Orcs it's a way of life. With Orcs, it's more about maintaining those reinforced screens to keep the defense in front of you, while you grind on the opposition. Eventually, if you never let them through, they'll either make a mistake or suffer the wrong injury roll.

EDIT
Awesome skills for Orc defense:
* A Guard Blocker. Except against heavy bash, it really only takes one. More is better, of course, but BOB skills are at a premium.
* Stand Firm on Blockers and/or Blitzers is the cure for what ails you; these skills totally shut down cages and force any redirection attempts to go through potentially very circuitous routes. You should seriously consider SF as a #2 skill on any S-access player, after Block or Guard (BOBs) or after MB or Frenzy (Blitzers).
* A Troll. After the Mummy, the Troll is the best value in big guys.
* Spam MB on the Blitzers, #1 skill for at least two, top three skill for all four. You need to deal some damage to grind effectively on heavy teams, and you have enough ST not to have trouble setting up 2d blocks.
* Frenzy/SF is disgustingly good, and not just for sideline action. Especially against speed, it's a great way to hose breakaways by driving them upfield. Mighty Blow is good on this guy too, but only as a #3 skill. This is one of the few players on whom SF is clearly better than SS; if he doubles, take Jump Up or something, or just ignore it.

One thing to note as an Orc coach. You should only very seldom make 1d blocks or move players to assist (unless there's some other reason for the moved player to be there), even if out-Guarded. Teams with as much ST as you, or with more Guard, will be at best able to match you here. The one exception is if the injury luck is really going against you and you're getting outnumbered. Then you may need to make some 1d blocks. If you find you're at even numbers and aren't engineering 2d blocks with every hit, you need to work on your blocking skills. You should also be able regularly to knock opponents into follow-up blocks.

You're not putting ST3 on the line, are you? 'Cause, except maybe against similar teams (other Orcs, Chaos, Undead), you shouldn't do that. Force the opponent to go after your mobs of ST4 and commit all his Guard to the line, or to ignore the LOS and cede midfield to you. Against teams that can 2d all your BOBs, they're glorified Zombies, but still if he can't knockdown you're fine.

It's important to have Blitzers in the wings, because you need to lock the opponent out of one side of the pitch. Ideally, you should be narrowing the field of play over and over, trying to drive the opponent to one WZ without letting them break through vertically either. I call this "partitioning the pitch": creating a "no-man's land" that you can patrol with just one or two guys forming the back of your structures, and a little controlled space where the opponent can huddle up and wait for the end.

Once you get a Block/SF BOB to play midfield, you can drop a safety back a bit deeper on the zig side, especially if you have another one on the LOS to keep the assists off. If you can get a SS Blitzer to play inverted wing, you can put a Frenzy Blitzer in the flank behind him, both to discourage sideline attempts and to be ready to patrol either backfield. If the offense goes the other way, these guys can swing around to partition off that side of the midfield, using the SS Blitzer to keep the Frenzy Blitzer clean as your safety.

If your opponent is knocking your BOBs down, put up some traps to keep them from following.

[SierraKiloBravo]

Great thread so far.