Wild Animal Trait - Pick your preferred solution

[Milo]

Well, you can always leave him in your Reserves box if you don't believe you can protect him. Likewise, if he falls over, you can always leave him down. He should never cost you more than one turn.

[martynq]

Phil doesn't mention it, but his minotaur is absolutely slaughtering my chaos team at the moment. The rest of his team consists of his version of the chaos halfling (5/2/3/6 Stunty, Guard), so I would hardly think that skaven would injure any more easily.

So far, his minotaur has inflicted two deaths (one apo'd), one SI (AV-1) on a chaos warrior, and one BH. I chose not to surround the mino on the first turn of the match since from all the discussion on this board, I felt it was a bit cheesy. Since then I've not really had the opportunity (mainly through lack of players due to kick-off events at first and now due to being three down though the mino).

The lesson I've learnt... always take the cheesy route - otherwise the wild animal will utterly destroy you.

Martyn

[phil]

i dunno... his injury rolls have been unusually good, in my previous two outings my minos managed little more than a series of stuns and the odd KO... if form had held in this match he'd be a minor inconvenience rather than a major meddler...

if we were to replay this game ten times with the same roster, i'd bet he'd average 1 casualty per match and in at least 3 or 4 of those cames you'd see him taken out of the game one way or the other...

and i'm not looking forward to seeing the game file when you send it back this time, you're really in quite a good position to get a nice crunch in on him over the next couple of turns...

[martynq]

and i'm not looking forward to seeing the game file when you send it back this time, you're really in quite a good position to get a nice crunch in on him over the next couple of turns...

Ah... you're forgetting to take into account my general incompetence. I've not had a look at the corrected version of the file (the joys of UNIX!) but if the situation is similar the same as the one I'd seen before then I couldn't see how to clear away enough stunties to get a good block on him... and protect the ball at the same time.

Martyn

[Skummy]

Marcus: Whether or not a WA "turns out all right" in any given game is immaterial. The fact of the matter is the WA coach cannot make tactical decisions as to how he will ameliorate the effects of WA, only strategic ones. The tactical decisions are entirely in the hands of the opposing coach who can chose to play the ball or choose to play the Wild Animal. To my mind that's bad for the game.

<Applause>

The biggest problem I have with WA is that it is the only negatrait that can eliminate an entire team turn becasue the coach can't decide who goes first

[phil]

The biggest problem I have with WA is that it is the only negatrait that can eliminate an entire team turn becasue the coach can't decide who goes first

lets set the way back machine to, oh, round about 1990 when big guys were revealed to me in the hallowed pages of "star players"... the fluff was quite clear, it said to us:

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lo, and big guys are horrible players, but coaches still hire them because they hit real hard and the crowd loves them

or something like that, i could be paraphrasing...

anyway, the problem with big guys at the time was that other than having a facing, and taking up a couple of roster slots, they weren't really a risk...

the fuff was clear, the implementation not so...

then along comes 3e... big guys are now utterly broken star players... the fluff is abondoned in favor of bad game design... c.f. games workshop

now we have negatraits, and they're varried in implimentation and in effect... some are bad, some are trivial, all of them at least accomplish the task of making big guys "a risk, but they hit real hard and the crowd loves them" and order is slowly creeping intot he universe once again.... but there's a roadblock between harmony and chaos... bad rules...

the current negatraits blow. they are not balanced against each other at all, some are downright useless...

i always have, and i always will insist that the only way to "fix" negatrits is to make them all the same and to make them all reflect a very high risk/reward consideration for their teams...

to that end, i've always though that all negatraits, while certainly maintaing a semantic name appropriate to the specific big guy, should have a mechanic as follows:

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when you activate a big guy, roll a d6, on a 1, the big guy's flaw has surfaced and broken the timing of your team's play. you suffer an immediate turnover."

there ya go... yes, it's very harsh, it's going to change the outcome of games, no one said you had to have a strength 5, mighty blow player on your team, did they?

long live simplicity!
long live fluff!

[martynq]

I like Phil's suggestion. OK, I'm an elf coach and so often can't take a big guy anyway, but I think this statement makes the whole point:

yes, it's very harsh, it's going to change the outcome of games, no one said you had to have a strength 5, mighty blow player on your team, did they?

Basically, if you want a reliable ST5 MB guy on your team the method is simple... coach undead or get enough ST increases and skills on your rostered players.

Perfectly fair!

Martyn

[Grumbledook]

Yer I am with phil fantastic idea. It seems players take big guys for the sake of it. I've never taken one, but I believe my skaven would have been more competative if i had done so. Though 1 in 6 turns causing a turnover is a bit harsh but then there is nothing saying you have to take their action first.

[plasmoid]

Hi Milo and all,

IMO,
the problem with WA is the very opportunity to "play the animal" instead of the ball. I find it utterly screwed up. I don't mind a nasty negative trait, but this is just silly.

IMO, if WA is toned down in some way, then frenzy definately has to go from the WA's!

As I said, I don't mind that the big guys have bad negative traits, but IMO there should be a limit, (and WA is past it).
I mean, the teams that didn't get a big guy got a 2-extra-position-players compensation. I certainly can't see any other reason to give a team as powerful as the dark elves 2 extra blitzers.
Since "everyone" else got compensation, the big guys shouldn't be totally cr*p.

Martin

[martynq]

I mean, the teams that didn't get a big guy got a 2-extra-position-players compensation. I certainly can't see any other reason to give a team as powerful as the dark elves 2 extra blitzers.

Powerful????? The best you can hope to start with is 2 blitzers and 9 linemen - how is this powerful? Yes, a well-developed dark elf team may well be powerful, but they are damned hard to get to that point. I'd hardly say that a rookie dark elf team is going to overwhelm a league, unless the coach is the best in the league and would overwhelm it with whatever who was coaching.

Martyn

[[France Bloodbowl] ZeBoss]

But not exactly the same as the one you describe here...
Let me explain in English (which won't be very easy!).

In FBB every game is recorded and every actions too. With this records we make some stats. Believe me or not in 20.000 games recorded, the best Big Guy, best destructor (best what you want!) ever is ... the Minotaure (and some Rat Ogre). Why?

Because they are an exceptional combination of different factors :
1) They are Strength 5 (but they are not alone in that case)
2) They have Frenzy as a basic skill (some other players have Frenzy and are not so efficient and other Big Guys can have Frenzy on a double)
3) They have access to physical skills (Chaos and Skavens)
4) They don't have a negative skill. I hear some of you shouting and laughing so I will try to explain the point :

Here is the proba to make a turnover when you attempt to block someone :

• Before 6xp :
  Block 2 dices against : 44%
  Block 1 dice : 33%
  Block 2 dices : 11%
  Block3 dices : 4%

• After 6xp (Which means they have Block unless you are idiot ) :
  Block 2 dices against : 30%
  Block 1 dice : 17%
  Block 2 dices : 3%
  Block 3 dices : 1%

In the case of a Big Guy played by a good coach, the 2 dices block is the most frequent case. Which means that a young Wild Animal has 10% risk of making a turnover, and a little more experimented Wild Animal only 3%.

All the others Big Guys have the same probas to make a Turnover when they block... With also a bonus proba of non playing enormous.

I explain again :

• A treeman as 50% risk to not play the first 8 turns!
  An ogre has 17% risk to not play a turn. Statisticly, in 16 turns he will miss about 3 turns (it can be a lot more and you can't do anything with that)
  A Vampire has 50% risk to miss the kick off. With Approximately 5 kick offs per game, he will miss an average 2 kickoff (approximately 6 turns)
  A troll has the same probas to miss as an ogre with a little bonus (thanks GW )

A Wild Animal has 0% risk not to play.
And a so little proba of making a turnover at the beginning of your turn that to us it is not a negative skill.

With all that in head we have decided to add them a negative skill at the beginning of the next season (in the beginning of July).
We have made a poll giving the choice between "Bone Head" and "Off For A Bite". I let you imagine the players reactions
Nevertheless they have choosen "Off For A Bite", like most of the League Commissionnars.
Then, in our league, ALL the Wild Animals will soon have the "Off For A Bite" skill approximately 1st July.
That was my 2 cents of the day!!!

• In order to help you understand our league, I have to precise that :
  
  1) most of the games are played through Javabowl. We played approximately 150 games per day and we have more than 2500 coaches and 8000 teams.
  
  2) The most common Wild Animal evolution is :
  Block - Pilling on - Pro
  If a double come, you can add : Razor sharp claws and Claw (for Chaos and Skaven)
  
  3) A usual game with a wild animal is an average 6 players out including more than 2 casualties. Way too much powerful for a league

[Redfang]

You forget that an opponent can Force a Wild Animal into taking a 2Dice block, at the start of a turn, with (when experienced) a 30% chance of the Wild Animal going down, causing a Turn Over. No other Big Guy can be forced to take a negative block, and no other big guy has to do so at the start of the turn. A Wild Animal might not miss a turn, but it might cause your entire team to do so!!!

That's quite negative, when it happens!

Oh, and OFAB has been changed to an on-pitch effect; it's no longer " 4+ to play the drive"

R

[Redfang]

Having read this entire thread, I think the best WA solution is either to keep it as it is, or, if it has to be changed, something similar to Neo's suggestion.

Currently I play a Chaos Team with a Minotaur and it works great. So far I have lost 2 turns or so (in 5 games) due to swamping, and a few more due to failed blocks, but also I've taken out 9 players. (My last game against Chaos Dwarfs I got lucky and removed a Bull Centaur, a Dwarf and a Hobgoblin). I also stayed up twice while swamped.
The fact that a WA can cost you a turn weighs up to the advantages of the minotaur, and makes the trait suitably negative! Besides, he can easily be protected with a few players around or near him. I like the way a WA plays right now.
A WA is a very powerful player but fielding one brings a great risk too.

R

[[France Bloodbowl] ZeBoss]

You forget that an opponent can Force a Wild Animal into taking a 2Dice block, at the start of a turn, with (when experienced) a 30% chance of the Wild Animal going down, causing a Turn Over. No other Big Guy can be forced to take a negative block, and no other big guy has to do so at the start of the turn. A Wild Animal might not miss a turn, but it might cause your entire team to do so!!!

I didn't forget it and it's why I have precised that a good player will prevent this by playing his WA always as a blitzer. Hitting hard and then going back quickly behind his teammates... Or piling on the blocked player in order to be down at the end of the turn which means that he won't have to block at the beginning of his next turn. I'm not here to describe how to well play a mino. So I won't insist on it. Nevertheless WA is a far less negative skill than the other.

Oh, and OFAB has been changed to an on-pitch effect; it's no longer " 4+ to play the drive"

I'm not aware of that. For the moment it is still played that way in our league. Do you have more info on that I'm interested?

[Redfang]

I didn't forget it and it's why I have precised that a good player will prevent this by playing his WA always as a blitzer. Hitting hard and then going back quickly behind his teammates... Or piling on the blocked player in order to be down at the end of the turn which means that he won't have to block at the beginning of his next turn. I'm not here to describe how to well play a mino. So I won't insist on it. Nevertheless WA is a far less negative skill than the other.

This blitzing tactic, while it certainly works, does mean that you use up your blitz action with your mino every time and need several of you players to keep him protected. That's quite a heavy toll to pay!

I'm not aware of that. For the moment it is still played that way in our league. Do you have more info on that I'm interested?

I think it's in the 2003 annual, but you should also be able to find it here; search for COFAB...