What happens if you forget to field a secret weapon?

[Corvidius]

This came up a while back so I thought I'd ask what the ruling is.

What happens if you forget to field 11 players when you would have to field a secret weapon?

The last time in our league the player who forgot voluntarily removed the secret weapon player which I think was very sporting but not strictly right under the rules. It resulted in only 10 players on the pitch and a Star Player not getting fielded at all.

I think that under a strict interpretation of the rules the Star Player would have had to be put on the pitch (rather than ejected) because the coach still only had 10 men on the pitch and it had been pointed out that he could actually field 11. Similarly a Secret Weapon can only be sent off if it has actually played in a drive. Voluntarily removing players isn't in the rules otherwise it would allow you to keep injured players or players who were about to skill up off the pitch.

[daloonieshaman]

It is not covered in the rules
Boils down to a commissioner decision
Restart with the necessary number of players. (ie if you have 7 players and a SW he MUST go on the pitch)
As if you screwed up and placed 10 (and had more in the reserves) or 12 players on the pitch.
or
Loose a RR

Just because he is a SW he should not be taken out of the game.
What if you have 16 and you set up 10 does your opponent send off your best player in the DO

[Mango]

Difficult situation

As has been said, you must put 11 players on the pitch if they are available but i can understand that sometimes a star is forgotten about especially if the model wasnt put in the dugout at the beginning of the game.

Unfortunately this can give the forgetful person a strong advantage, lets say he forgets to set up a chainsaw player on a kickoff so his opponent doesnt get the opportunity to sniper him befire he gets a change to chainsaw someone, then if he is placed for the next drive when receiving the coach gets the full benefit of the player.

In a situation like this if the commish isnt around I would put it into the hands of the dice gods and say 4+ the star cannot be used for the rest of the game as the ref penalizes the team, otherwise play on as normal as the ref didnt spot the transgression.

Having 12 on the pitch is easy, random player gets sent off and lose a rr


motto of the story : always count your opponents players at kickoff

[Corvidius]

Unfortunately this can give the forgetful person a strong advantage, lets say he forgets to set up a chainsaw player on a kickoff so his opponent doesnt get the opportunity to sniper him befire he gets a change to chainsaw someone, then if he is placed for the next drive when receiving the coach gets the full benefit of the player.

In the situation in question the Star Player was Induced to balance tv so the coach was already at a disadvantage, he accidentally forgot the player which meant he was down to 10 men for 2 turns and so was disadvantaged again, his opponent pointed out the Secret Weapon which the player voluntarily removed (for a Norse Coach he's an nice guy. ) his SW player and had to play the 8 turns of the second half at a disadvantage.

I understand no-one likes to get Chainsawed but shouldn't a real disadvantage (or more than one) overrule a potential advantage? The Chainsaw player could well get Blitzed off the pitch in turn 1 of the second half after all or suffer Kickback.

[daloonieshaman]

but if it is turn 7 of the first half and a new kickoff .....
Makes a huge difference

[purdindas]

I was the coach who was playing against the guy who forgot to put his chainsaw on the pitch. The guy was very sporting about the whole thing and just put the mini back in his box as soon as we had figured out what was going on. We were already half way through turn 8 if the first half at that point. I believe I would have done the same thing if the roles were reversed. It seems wrong to get an advantage out of making a mistake. IMO.

[Corvidius]

Purdindas, you and I have discussed this one before and have pretty much agreed to disagree.

I think it is something that could do with a little bit of input or official clarity. Ultimately if the 2 coaches agree then there's no argument but there will be occasions where this comes up and the coaches disagree.

I have to say that i wouldn't be happy if something i'd Induced to even up a disparity in the teams couldn't take to the pitch through an honest mistake. For example if the model had been knocked off the table.

I'd say it was more unfair to be disadvantaged in the face of a superior team.

Not all advantages put your opponent at a disadvantage. Sometimes they just level the playing field. Which is what Inducements are for right?

Anyhoo, back to work for me, slacking over.

[Pagan]

I'd wonder why the opposing coach didn't count his opponent's players on the field before kicking and ask why he only had 10 on, especially if he was anticipating getting to Blitz or watch a secret weapon get tossed from the game.

The first time it happens, one coach is disadvantaged because he only has 10 guys on the field and one lost the chance to get a Secret Weapon out of the game. Punishment to both coaches for not ensuring the game was in a legal state. Now if one coach had a pattern of doing that then I'd start to wonder if they were doing it intentionally which would have to be stopped.

[Mango]

Ultimately if the 2 coaches agree then there's no argument but there will be occasions where this comes up and the coaches disagree.

I have to say that i wouldn't be happy if something i'd Induced to even up a disparity in the teams couldn't take to the pitch through an honest mistake. For example if the model had been knocked off the table.

Surely the onus is on the coach to remember his own team and inducements.

In a not dissimilar situation I remember one 40k tourney I was playing and I forgot to deploy a unit. I remembered about turn 2 that I hadnt, bad luck, unit destroyed, opponent gets full points. My unit, onus is on me to deploy it as per the rules.

You are right on one point though, it is up to the 2 players to work an agreement, if they cant then it should be in the favour of the opponent.

I would hate to see the face of someone who says "thats ok put it on the next drive" and then watch as his star player dies to that particular model

[Insane_Prophet]

I'd wonder why the opposing coach didn't count his opponent's players on the field before kicking and ask why he only had 10 on, especially if he was anticipating getting to Blitz or watch a secret weapon get tossed from the game..

I'd have to second this. Given the rules state you must place 11 men on the pitch if possible, but don't include a penalty for forgetting (we'll assume there's no cheating here) the closest thing I can think of would be:

"Q: Is it an illegal procedure to forget to roll for Blood Lust, Bonehead, Wild Animal, Take Root or Really Stupid before you move the player?
A: No, hopefully your opponent will remind you if you keep forgetting" - Page 77 (51 in my PDF), CRP.

Obviously these aren't the same occasions, but it seems like the best precedent in the rules. If it becomes a continual problem it's the role of the league commissioner to make a ruling, essentially on whether or not the player at fault is abusing the rules.

If it's cheating, you have no place playing the game. If it's an innocent mistake the onus is on both players to catch it.

Frankly this is probably something a league commissioner should rule on at the start of a season - I think declaring that the SW is still sent off is perfectly fair (*once it's a league rule*) - you know the consequence, it penalises you, so it's in your interest to prevent it. Innocent mistake or not.