Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[garion]

But there isnt silence from TT player I am a TT player and the game does have problems, Carnis and Plasmoids play TT. I am using fumbbl evidence to support my arguement because it is available, and the statistics from those ganmes posted show how devestating the combo can be on a regular basis. If it is was one game in 10 then fair enough but they are destorying teams most games and if they are not then those games are the anomalys. I am also lucky that I play in a league where the teams are reset every season just to avoid this type of team happening. Most TT leagues impose house rules anyway. I know some leagues that have baned the use of a Wizard because he is too powerful.

I also think it is really close minded of your to say that tournaments are not how the game was meant to be played. Surely the BBRC must have created the rules with people that play in the tourney scene in mind. If they didnt I think that is a huge slap in the face to them. They are some of the main supporters of the game.

You say don't expect to change a system that works correctly when played as intended. This is the point, it does not work. It works better yes, and I still love playing the game but it still broken in terms of team development now because every team just goes for the same skills throughout their team now. Half the skills do not get taken in a league with coaches that play at a high standard. And certain skill combinations are so OP you cannot risk taking more interesting skills if you care about winning.

[Darkson]

This is the point, it does not work.

And I disagree (as do 75%+ of people that answered).
So there's two possibilities:
1. The majority of people are wrong.
2. You are wrong.

And it's on record that tourney play wasn't on the agenda of the BBRC, a decision I agree with (and yes, I really enjoy tourney play).

[garion]

Yes but it is not just me is it. These threads have run and run on every BB site around for a long time. As you say people have been banging on about this on the cyanide forum for 400+ pages, here on numerous threads for X amount of pages on fumbbl for a huge amount of blogs forums etc... and they cant all be wrong.

But anyway the topic got tired a long time ago and I have only been persistently posting in it because I'm at work and have nothing better to do. But you may as well lock this thread and all those like it. Because they are going nowhere and you are right that the problem in the topic isnt a massive issue in TT leagues, because of how short most of them are and social factors etc...

Although I and many many others think a very small change would be better for the game. But obviously nothing can be done about that anyway and it is still the best rule set of the game to date. So lets all just leave it there and have fun playing this awesome game instead

[Darkson]

I never said it was just you, but when the majority of posters think it's fine, then perhaps it's you (the proverbial "you", not the specific "you") that has it wrong.

I don't think we ever did, but I'd guess if we'd run a similar poll for the old Claw/RSC combo we'd have had a lot less than 75% saying it was fine.

[Mirascael]

People out there have vilified the BBRC as "Braindead Boneheads Retards Committee", and that these would be the rules you'd get when wanna-be game-designers who think they are pro because they've run a pub-league once, would mess around with rules, merely to impress and please their fanboys out of pride an vanity, arrogantly rejecting all valid concerns out of hand.

Thus, in order to counter these ridiculous assumptions, I have decided to dedicate and devote a team to honour the insights and wisdoms of Holy Saint Galak and his disciples, whom I DO genuinely worship and admire, as every follower of Nuffle should do. With each new player, I will pay homage to our beloved prophet by naming him after one of His pearls of wisdom. And all these players will spread the word of the Clawpomb and smite those heretics, infidels and heathens who dare to commit the sacrilege to doubt and desecrate His divine words.

[garion]

I never said it was just you, but when the majority of posters think it's fine, then perhaps it's you (the proverbial "you", not the specific "you") that has it wrong.

I don't think we ever did, but I'd guess if we'd run a similar poll for the old Claw/RSC combo we'd have had a lot less than 75% saying it was fine.

Probably would have been but then that would require a player to roll two doubles. Not two singles. Also I have always maintained that Claw is an excellent bit of game design and even claw stacked with MB isnt a problem. The problem is solely a PO mixed with MB issue which is too powerful IMO and when claw gets thrown into that its far too powerful again IMO.

But as I said, I think the thread has covered everything people are going to say now. From here on in it will just go round and round so your may as well lock it and leave it there. Because this issue will not get resolved until the BBRC are allowed to work on LRB7 or CRP 2 what ever they would call it and this doesnt look like it will happen any time soon sadly :'(

Also this issue will never effect most TT leagues because of how short there seasons are or tourney are etc... in comparison to the never-ending online arenas and teams most of the time do not have time to develop like this.

Lock it

Edit: Nice Team

[Carnis]

Thus, in order to counter these ridiculous assumptions, I have decided to dedicate and devote a team to honour the insights and wisdoms of Holy Saint Galak and his disciples, whom I DO genuinely worship and admire, as every follower of Nuffle should do.

This could explain where the tone is coming from.. I agree, lock it ;|.

[GalakStarscraper]

I'm not being tone incorrect.

Look ... the poll and 5 years of TT league data never showed a problem with this in TT.

Its a problem only in online play where you can cherry pick your opponents and there are some controls on TV.

So two BBRC members (the other 2 are very rarely online) suggested a FUMBBL fix for you.

Piling On (Strength)
The player may use this skill after he has made a block as part of one of his Block or Blitz Actions, but only if the Piling On player is currently standing adjacent to the victim and the victim was Knocked Down. You may re-roll the Armour roll or Injury roll for the victim, but you may not use your player's armour or injury modifying skills (like Mighty Blow or Claw) on the re-rolled result. The Piling On player is Placed Prone in his own square -- it is assumed that he rolls back there after flattening his opponent (do not make an Armour roll for him as he has been cushioned by the other player!). Piling On does not cause a turnover unless the Piling On player is carrying the ball. Piling On cannot be used with the Stab or Chainsaw skills.

This was NOT offered in sarcasm. It was a honest offered suggestion by Ian and I. And yet after giving you our thoughts ... you are still carrying on, because Ian and I are not agreeing its a problem outside of FUMBBL and MM. Well you have to get over that. The above is the best suggestion for a house rule to fix the problem. If you want ... I'll even write to Christer and explain that in my opinion the house ruled environment created by the BlackBox causes the need for this. Carnis I openly reject your comments that the 15% isn't causing this problem ... it is ... if it wasn't we would have seen this from other sources. Again ... stop trying to 100% win the argument. Ian and I are both suggesting that the house rules of Black Box may cause the need for another house rule. That's a win for you ... you are not going to get me to agree that it should be a permanent rule change because TT leagues are not showing the need for it.

Look I run BB tournaments. In the last tournament I ran I allowed the Apothecary to leave the player Prone on the pitch if used on a KO'd instead of stunned so that it had more value for anyone wanting to bring one as part of the team. Do I think that change needs to happen to the TT rules for BB .... NO. But that doesn't mean I didn't think that change was a good idea for the house ruled format that a tournament is.

The advantage that the above suggestion has is that bash teams still have a reason to mix Claw and Mighty Blow and Piling On. Its just the full synergy is messed with which is really what you are trying to accomplish. But it is accomplished without the suggestions that I hate on FUMBBL (ie AV roll only, make it have a fouling ejection roll, AV roll -1 for the Piling On player, etc). Mess with the synergy ... not the skill itself.

Seriously point Christer to this ... I have zero issue if FUMBBL adds this in.

Tom

[garion]

well I really commend you for actually taking the time to think of what the best solution would be for BB MM etc... and it shows how devoted to the game you are still which is great to see, even after how poorly you were treated by gw. But Christer will never agree to that. He rightly wants everything on fumbbl to be as close to the rules as possible. The developers are doing an amazing job too. Most skills are optional as they should be only a couple of minor skills are missing at the moment. The only house rules the site employs are the teams must only play other team within 15% TV of eachother. But that is there to make sure matches are fair and to limit cherry picking in R etc...

I can't wait for L to start up though, that is the best part of fumbbl-BB IMHO.

I would love for you to star playing some games on fumbbl once the client is completely finished though, to see how the guys have done. It would also be great to see Darkson return because he was only around for a very breif period. Same goes for double skulls, come back . It would be great to have all you guys involved again.

[Coachbalrog]

After reading all this post, and all of the Claw posts on Cyanide I have to wonder why people are crying for Claw to be nerfed when the crux of the argument in THIS Claw post is that Piling On should be nerfed. I am starting to get convinced that allowing PO on injury may be too strong, but what does the community keep harping on Claw instead?

Also, and I ask this in full sincerity because I do not know the answer, but is there any mechanism by which a rule can be changed now? From my understanding the BBRC is disbanded and GW is not looking at making any more rule changes anyways and Cyanide cannot alter a line of code without GW approval... so what options do we have other than house rules?

[Carnis]

After reading all this post, and all of the Claw posts on Cyanide I have to wonder why people are crying for Claw to be nerfed when the crux of the argument in THIS Claw post is that Piling On should be nerfed. I am starting to get convinced that allowing PO on injury may be too strong, but what does the community keep harping on Claw instead?

Also, and I ask this in full sincerity because I do not know the answer, but is there any mechanism by which a rule can be changed now? From my understanding the BBRC is disbanded and GW is not looking at making any more rule changes anyways and Cyanide cannot alter a line of code without GW approval... so what options do we have other than house rules?

As per the announcement over a year ago rules cannot be changed, it's idle chatter really, but there's nothing actually stopping GW from changing the rules, but it's very unlikely as BBRC was disbanded and the game is receiving 0 miniature etc support outside the Cyanide game.

I didn't start the thread & certainly would not, but I DO refuse the claim that the killstack is not op, so I posted here. It's plainfully obvious that you need other things than a killstack to win games (some guard, a ballcarrier), but the stack is really the beef in the hamburger, without it the overwinning chaos/pact/nurgle/CD are seriously toned down.

The only options for a "fix" are houserules, which fumbbl will not be implementing as it's never been a houserule-league outside of L & Stunty Leeg (although the old client had differences vs the boardgame due to coding/implementation issues). Or a sudden new interest from GW to fix the rules for Cyaniders.

As for the Claw question.. The Claw/MB synergy is really the disruptive new skill that wasnt there before. It's a thorn in old Dwarf/Orc coaches side, who were formerly dominating with spam guard/mb + some dirty players against other team's AV8 while being behind AV9 (down to 7 with old relatively rare Claw, down to 6 with new relatively common mb/claw). A good orc/dwarf type coach could be playing a sort of solitaire, where he picks up the ball, positions his players, and be sure the players are there the next turn too, claw/MB really breaks this and is disruptive to this kind of game. PO is just icing on the cake, ultimately the MB/Claw would be strong enough on it's own to change a lot of game synergies.

The crux of it to me though is, that there's a 400+ page thread on Cyanide & several blogs on FUMBBL where players are saying it's an issue and it's taking away from their enjoyment of the game, whilst the BBRC take the stance that there really is no issue since the majority of TT players are not complaining.

[Darkson]

The crux of it to me though is, that there's a 400+ page thread on Cyanide & several blogs on FUMBBL where players are saying it's an issue and it's taking away from their enjoyment of the game, whilst the BBRC take the stance that there really is no issue since the majority of TT players are not complaining.

Remind me - who were the rules designed for again? TT players or online players?

[daloonieshaman]

nuff said
close this puppy down

[Coachbalrog]

Remind me - who were the rules designed for again? TT players or online players?

This is a dangerous argument to take. The popularity of Blood Bowl has increased dramatically since the release of the Cyanide game. Attempting to negate this whole thread by invoking some sort of elitist TT approach is insincere at best; the online game is here to stay and although its format is far from perfect it does have a big impact on the perception of this edition's ruleset by the BB community.

[Deathwing]

Remind me - who were the rules designed for again? TT players or online players?

This is a dangerous argument to take. The popularity of Blood Bowl has increased dramatically since the release of the Cyanide game. Attempting to negate this whole thread by invoking some sort of elitist TT approach is insincere at best; the online game is here to stay and although its format is far from perfect it does have a big impact on the perception of this edition's ruleset by the BB community.

It's not an argument. Or an opinion. Or elitist. It's fact. The rules were designed for TT league play. Not online, not TT tournament play. That's simply the way it is.