Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[PurpleChest]

What I'm saying is that by only matching on TV they are missing a lot of the fun and flexibility that go with BB. They should look for even match ups on coaching skill, TV and race because then more of the games will be even and probably more fun for everyone.

By using factors other than just TV the match ups will have a higher variance of TV than at present and that will encourage teams to be a bit less one dimensional.

just a quick note on this. Blackbox division on fumbbl was originally set up in excactly this way. But it turns out BloodBowl isnt chess, and the human motivatin factors were massively different.

I'm not that bad a coach, and i found that getting ona good run of results meant ever harder games, BB uphill. If somehow you managed to wina game up 40 TR (as was) against a decent oppoent, by whatever means, your reward? an even harder game next time.

Now in chess thats fine, becasue all anyone cares about is their ranking. But would they feel the same if winning often meant facing a player with 2 extra rooks? It turned out that playing as hard as you can but only ever expecting a 50% win record, and if you were half decent having to fight huge in-game odds to get even that, just turned everyone off and almost all the decent coaches instantly abandoned it.


I do accept that the B division on FUMBBL is not the enviroment BB was designed for. Nor are RL Tournaments (or online tournaments) and it is interesting to hear that confirmed by members of the (i thought defunct?) BBRC.

I will be interested to see how the new sills and teams do in the massive developed teams majors that we run on FUMBBL, and very soon will have the chance to see.

As to whether Claw-pomb is broken? Well it is certainly VERY powerful, but as with all killer combos (and every ruleset has seen them) it is not unbeatable. My response to clawpomb predominance in perpetual on line leagues is:

People will meta game any system. And define win individually, and chase it with every tool and tactic at their disposal. and so are/will those that condemn them. be it win %, some rating number or just 'pissing people off', you cannot and will not stop it. All you can do is choose the options that do exist:

Counter it: Builds that beat every design do exist.
Join them: If its so good, try it.
Ignore them: Progress past the TV they hunt at, or just play them and try your best.
Leave: there are other options for playing BB, even on FUMBBL, than in the enviroments these builds thrive in.

And while i do not endorse trolling, i do quite like a little bit of ridicule of such utterly one dimensional coaches. Given the vast variety offered by this game, they choose to do one thing endlessly. thats a little bit sad don't you think? And why? to make some numbers different to what they were before the game.

Numbers are there to look pretty, not mean things. If only we stopped attaching meaning to the numbers and starting seeing them like flowers. But then some people insist on competing for the prettiest flowers don't they? Though i confess I am not immune to trying to win flower shows myself.

This is a game, have fun. if your opponent defines fun differently to you, who are you to tell them they are wrong? Just get through it and hope for, or ensure, fun more of your liking next time

[uuni]

Thank you all for writing these thoughts on the matter. I think this conversation can be actually going to somewhere!

I think that the note on the 15% rule causing minmaxing deserves much thought. I hope to read more about it. Do you think that a free-for all or no-TV-limits pairing system would be better in some way?

Regarding to the Piling On nerf -question, I started to think an alternative skill modification: Could the Mighty Blow be changed to only apply to the injury roll? This would mean that Claw and Mighty Blow would stack less and the AV7 would become the normal minimum of AV. Please tell more of your thoughts on this subject also.

Thank you all for your writings. They have been interesting to read and to learn from. I hope to read and learn more from you in future.

[Darkson]

Regarding to the Piling On nerf -question, I started to think an alternative skill modification: Could the Mighty Blow be changed to only apply to the injury roll? This would mean that Claw and Mighty Blow would stack less and the AV7 would become the normal minimum of AV. Please tell more of your thoughts on this subject also.

If there was a problem with MB/PO/Claw, that woud probably be ok, but seeing as there isn't...

[Xeterog]

The problem is the combo is OP. I cannot believe the arrogance on display in this thread that despite 400+ pages on this topic of people complaining about this combo being OP all the evidence that has been supplied that the rules creators do not belive there is even the slightest possibility they may be wrong and the complete refusal to even review the evidence. The post above is a well put together arguement about why the combo is broken and as per usual a small quote is taken out of context by one of the BBRC who then just basically accuses everyone that doesnt agree with them as being a whinge.

Most of that 400 page thread was Cbbake and one or two others saying "it's over powered' while everyone else says, no, it's not and/or prove it. The arrogance, I believe, comes from the people who think it's way over powered (a minority on this poll, and seemingly in that 400+ page thread) and won't give up the idea that it might be working as intended.

Heck, you said that you usually beat up these teams, despite getting bashed in. I'm not quite that good myself, but I don't have a problem with it really. My bash teams have all the same tools except for claw, so I do about 50/50 with them (maybe a little less, but I am an average coach at best).

[Mirascael]

Regarding to the Piling On nerf -question, I started to think an alternative skill modification: Could the Mighty Blow be changed to only apply to the injury roll? This would mean that Claw and Mighty Blow would stack less and the AV7 would become the normal minimum of AV. Please tell more of your thoughts on this subject also.

As MB has always been overpowered vs. AV7, you rarely saw AV7-teams being competitive at higher TR-ranges in the past, except for woodies, who had a tree (whose impact had always been underestimated). On top of that, people had been taking MB for Claw-players even without any stacking at all, the damage modifier alone has always been worthwhile enough. If you split MB into 2 separate skills, both skills would still remain staple choices. In fact, a split would lead to an in-game balancing effect as Claw/MB-armour and MB-injury would be taken with regard to roster distribution which then would encourage coaches to pick underrepresented races when starting a new team. You'd have a feedback control system that way:

1) AV 9 dominated league: Players will tend to pick Claw ---> AV 7 encouraged
2) AV 7 dominated league: Players will tend to pick MB-armour ---> AV 9 encouraged

PO would still need to be nerfed, though.

Incidentally, you could split PO into 2 separate skills as well. Then die-hard Khorne-disciples could go for that hardcore-killing ubermonster without breaking the game with Clawpombblocktackle-staples.

Both skills split apart would also allow the non-mutation races to at least stand a chance in the arms race from a long term perspective.

[Carnis]

IF you want to nerf the combo I think uuni's way is the way forward, though I'd make it so that MB is still applied vs av8-10, just not applied at armor against av7 (so against pro elves, wood elves, or after claw).

Anyway, that's really not relevant as there are no changes planned. I do think the 58% to pass armor is too much, but it's still the best ruleset of BB that I have played. And drawing pure conclusions from games of ROs team are obviously not without bias as he has won a lot of games where he has done less casualties than his opponent (albeit with a lot of knockouts for him).

This way PO would not be "like mb, but worse" like it was in lrb4.

[garion]

Heck, you said that you usually beat up these teams, despite getting bashed in.

No I said I usually win these matches despite my opponent almost clearing me from the pitch.

Here is a very good example of that, if memory serves me correct i had one player left at the end of the game and won 4-1 feel free to watch the replay. I can provide many other replays like this one if you are interested

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3124709

Edit: speaking of trolling check next post

[daloonieshaman]

you guys forgot to add Jump Up

[Xeterog]

Heck, you said that you usually beat up these teams, despite getting bashed in.

No I said I usually win these matches despite my opponent almost clearing me from the pitch.

Here is a very good example of that, if memory serves me correct i had one player left at the end of the game and won 4-1 feel free to watch the replay. I can provide many other replays like this one if you are interested

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3124709

Edit: speaking of trolling check next post

I mis-spoke..when I said beat up, I meant just beat...ie you won. sorry about that.

So, you win..that is the point of the game isn't it? if claw/mb/po doesn't help the team win more games...so what if it causes more damage? In fact, it's supposed to cause more damage and was designed to cause more damage. Many of the players who make these loaded teams don't care about the fundamental thing about playing any game where a winner is deteremined..winning. they care about casualty counts and/or kills..they can't win the game, so they go for something they can be 'on top of the lists' with.

[Carnis]

Heck, you said that you usually beat up these teams, despite getting bashed in.

No I said I usually win these matches despite my opponent almost clearing me from the pitch.

Here is a very good example of that, if memory serves me correct i had one player left at the end of the game and won 4-1 feel free to watch the replay. I can provide many other replays like this one if you are interested

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3124709

Edit: speaking of trolling check next post

I mis-spoke..when I said beat up, I meant just beat...ie you won. sorry about that.

So, you win..that is the point of the game isn't it? if claw/mb/po doesn't help the team win more games...so what if it causes more damage? In fact, it's supposed to cause more damage and was designed to cause more damage. Many of the players who make these loaded teams don't care about the fundamental thing about playing any game where a winner is deteremined..winning. they care about casualty counts and/or kills..they can't win the game, so they go for something they can be 'on top of the lists' with.

That's really not a good example game, studman doesnt really even try to win his games. So even an all snotling team could win 4-1 vs him as long as he gets the kills.

[garion]

Yes thats true, that is a terrible example because he left the ball carrier totally exposed all game and as carnis said studman doesnt care if he wins at all lol

Here is the last game i played against one of those teams then - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=646111

I admitedly was a bit lucky to win in the end, but that was because i empoyed a stupid tactic in the second half and wanted to see if i could just run away for a whole half and keep a 1-0 lead. I managed it but it was lucky. Normally I would have just scored an easy two turn touch down in the first two turns of the second half then ran away after that

[DoubleSkulls]

Something has to be the best combination. If claw/mb/po gets weakened as a combo what's next... everyone complaining AV9 teams are too good?

Well I didnt want to write in these threads anymore, but the three members of the BBRC are completely missing the point.

Actually I'm trying to move the conversation onto the next problem... change the injury causing skills and what would be next? If we just change Claw/PO/MB in isolation what impact does it have on the game?

Fundamentally I don't think there is a problem with the combo, but people don't like players dying so single it out.

[garion]

Ah apologies, I see what you are getting at. Well as I have said numerous times I think this rule set is the best by far to date from a TT point of view and they are certainly the most balanced to date IMO and I do like them I dont think anything major needs to be changed. Just some part of the combo needs to be broken up. Such as not allowing claw and MB to stack on the Av roll, that way MB could still be used on the Injury roll but wouldnt lower the armour of a player to that of a Halfling. Also big guys need some protection from Claw because while they are god at a low TV in TT leagues once claw teams reach the 15 games mark they can kill a big guy easier than they can a Norse lineman. Which IMO is a little daft.

PO for me is too powerfull at the moment because you get to re-roll both av and inj with the stack. Again maybe just not allowing claw or MB to be used on the second roll (the pilling on roll) would suffice.

This all fits the fluff too. Because MB is meant to be a player that can hit really hard and Claw is meant to be a player with a claw that can tear through armour easily, now a punch and a claw action seem to be very different things to me speaking from a fluff point of view and neither of these abilities could really be used if a player just fell on top of someone again purely from a fluff perspective.

[RandomOracle]

So, you win..that is the point of the game isn't it? if claw/mb/po doesn't help the team win more games...so what if it causes more damage? In fact, it's supposed to cause more damage and was designed to cause more damage. Many of the players who make these loaded teams don't care about the fundamental thing about playing any game where a winner is deteremined..winning. they care about casualty counts and/or kills..they can't win the game, so they go for something they can be 'on top of the lists' with.

It does help win games. Just because some people choose to focus on killing and all but ignore the ball doesn't mean that you can't build a winning strategy based on claw/mb/po.

[GalakStarscraper]

I want to be very very very clear ... I'm fine if someone wanted to add a house rules to a limited TV difference environment where Piling On did not allow Claw or Mighty Blow to work on the re-rolled result (regardless of whether it is Injury or Armour).

I openly and fully and completely reject the statement that the following are too powerful even in a limited TV difference league:

1) Claw stacking with Mighty Blow. If this was true Skaven, Pro and Wood Elves would be too difficult to play. So the fact that your AV 9 player can now die ... get over it and move one ... all the AV 7 races got over this a long time ago.

2) Piling On allowing you to re-roll the injury roll. Running the math many times I cannot agree with this. Especially consider the fix Ian and I suggestion could be considered is light years better than moving PoN back to an AV only re-roll. It was way too weak in LRB 4.0.

3) Mighty Blow working on the Injury roll. Seriously ... no. Get over your pixels dying from time to time.

Tom/Galak