Timed turns kicking my butt on FUMBBL

[mattgslater]

Okay, I need help. Timed turns are kicking my butt. The same lack of vision that's made me focus so heavily on the crutch of terminology makes me a slow player.

In my tabletop league, it's no big deal. We have a broad mix of skill levels, so we don't call time on anybody. It's a social affair; everybody's drinking beer and talking about last week's game and inquiring about what all the commotion is at the next table. I survey the pitch for a long time between my turns, and can plan my actions out "on the fly" because we're used to 3-hour games. So when I move my turn marker, it's not 4 minutes 'til I'm done, but it might be 10 or even 15 minutes from the start of one of my turns to the start of the next. But on FUMBBL, there's (understandably) a very different culture, and I'm experiencing major culture shock.

I've found that when I feel hurried all my plans go out the window. Despite having a terrible time adjusting to the format I'm not doing terribly (13-4-7, 2:1 TD, 3:2 Cas); in fact, when I'm facing a coach who tells me he's not worried about the clock I play pretty well. But when I look up and the turn timer is at 3:42 and I have three actions, I'm liable to make a mistake. Particularly, I've found that when I feel rushed I tend to misclick; in one game it turned what would have been a brilliant blitz into a horrid crowdpush, and in another it cost me a shot at a tie. Mind you, that's not my only fault (I rely too much on the odds and take too many contingent actions), but it's the one that keeps me from winning games against good coaches. Worse, it annoys them, which isn't what I want at all. I'm getting better just by playing, but I've got a long way to go before I'm finishing almost every turn inside of 3:00 or so, which I think is a reasonable target for me.

Have any of you struggled going from a casual format to a timed format? How did you solve this problem?

[purdindas]

How many people actually use the timeout button on fumbbl?

I know I never would.

[mattgslater]

About half in Ranked, and all in Blackbox (so far). Some (PeteW) give a warning the first time. It doesn't bug me; I see it as a challenge. But it's beating me up. I'm rated 152; when I get to the point where I'm playing at my TT level I'll peak out in the mid-160s. From there, it'll just be a matter of solving the small problems I understand before I start to climb the board. But that's after I've solved this part.

The problem is, it's hard to practice. My TT league can't/won't help me, and every time I bomb on time management on FUMBBL, some other coach thinks, "there goes Jackass Rampant, the tortoise in the race." It's like this for me with a lot of games, by the way. I start really slow, then eventually speed up to manageably slow.

[purdindas]

I suppose its a good way of making sure you speed up your game.

I've only ever had one guy use it on me. Like you I'm a bit of a noob on fumbbl but I cant imagine many people use it.

We'll need to play some time mate.

[mattgslater]

I suppose its a good way of making sure you speed up your game.

I've only ever had one guy use it on me. Like you I'm a bit of a noob on fumbbl but I cant imagine many people use it.

We'll need to play some time mate.

You mean like yesterday?
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3134750

Though you had 160k on me and somehow I didn't get my inducements...

I want a rematch!

[Digger Goreman]

Most of timed play comes down to anything you do as a good coach... maybe a little more "automatic": Move players that don't require dice rolls.... Make 2d+ blocks before others.... In our TT League it's always timed... lest we never get outta the game store.... New coaches get provisionally timed (clock running but not called) till they start getting the majority of their turns under four minutes....

Just put some NOS behind that excellent mind of your's Matt!

[purdindas]

Haha!

Didnt realise that was you Matt. Yeah it was a good game. We should totally have a rematch. How about tomorrow about 9gmt?

[Overhamsteren]

Do you use automove?

[mattgslater]

Yeah, but I have FUMBBLfingers, so I have to double-check every move.

[stashman]

In our club we play 4 min rule. I play fast, sometimes to fast but it make the game intense! If I would play without clock (and I know that alot of tournaments don't use clocks) I loose focus and maybe both you and your opponent forgot if there already has been a blitz done or not.

Even when we play Casual games, we use clock and sometimes we train and make it 3 min turns.

On FUMBBL, I start to surf around on internet when opponents go over 2,5 min... I loose intrest in the match.

Clock is good, and I would really like it to be 3 min on FUMBBL becuse you don't have to roll dive, move models and declare actions.

[Wanchor]

I'm still of the opinion that the game is to be played timed and always timed. It's even been discussed in my group to apply the same principle to Twilight Imperium, we lose focus on the game so easily and often.

Not to tell you how to have fun, but the only real advice I can think of aside from playing more internetbowl is to start taking the four-minute clock seriously at the table. One only misses four minutes of conversation at a time, after all, and it's poor form to pop up next to a coach taking his turn and listen to an anecdote or laugh at a jpeg.

[PorkSol]

If you're not doing this already, use the built in feature to put notes on the players.

Shift Right click (I think) and a little text box comes up, where you can add 5-6 letters which will be superimposed on the player icons.

Mark the skills on each player at the start of the game- B for block, D for Dodge, G for Guard etc.

Great feature.

[Corvidius]

If you're not doing this already, use the built in feature to put notes on the players.

Shift Right click (I think) and a little text box comes up, where you can add 5-6 letters which will be superimposed on the player icons.

Mark the skills on each player at the start of the game- B for block, D for Dodge, G for Guard etc.

Great feature.

Shift Left Click as far as I know, I do it every game at the start for both teams.

I agree with everyone else, play with it in real life or start making notes of what order to do actions in in your opponents turn. Downside of that means you can't really chat.

[Nestyr]

Hi all,

Staying on topic, I can only provide two pieces of advice to Matt:

• . Pay attention to your opponent's turn, and start planning your turn in response to what he is doing. By the time his turn has ended, you should have a fair idea of what you want/need to do, so you just need to concentrate on taking your actions, rather than making elaborate plans;
  . Practice the above, and you will reduce the time you turns take very quickly.

With regard to listening to anecdotes, etc: when I'm playing a game, I respect my opponent by focussing on what he is doing in his turn, and focussing on what I am doing in mine. Socialising and other "hob-nobbing" can be done before or after a game. I think of it as being a spectator in a game of tennis - when the game is on, everyone shuts up and pays attention to what they are doing - they don't sit there talking about that great game you played last week in a loud voice to another person across the court, or strike up a conversation with you when you are in the middle of a rally... Chatting between opponent's is good, and I encourage that, but I prefer it to be on topic - congratulating a good move, commiserating when something bad happens, etc.

The following is a bit of a rant, and will probably upset some of you, but them's the breaks!

I have been playing Blood Bowl since 2nd edition, and have been playing timed turns and illegal procedure ever since they were first introduced (in third edition, if memory serves).

Why? First, because it is part of the rules. You have four minutes to complete your turn. If you don't finish within that time, your turn ends. End of story. Timed turns is *not* an optional rule. It is part of the game, and even part of the conditions which result in a turnover.

It's not like Special Play Cards, etc, which are optional, and used at the discretion of your Commisioner.

Quite frankly, I *like* timed turns. As I have stated before, both here and on other forums, for me the timed turn is a good way of representing the chaos that goes on in the game of Blood Bowl.

In an real game like Blood Bowl, whether it be Rugby, Gridiron, Football, whatever, your players do not have the same view of the field as you do as the coach - they can only see what is going on in a specific area around them. That is, they do not have the luxury of the 'bird's-eye' view of the field the coach has, and have to make the best decision they can with what they have at hand - I find the timed turn is a good way of representing this.

Also, the time limit is a great "leveller". As Matt says, he likes to take his time, look over everything that is happening, and make contingency plans. No doubt he makes great plans, because he is an intelligent person (I gather, from his tactics articles and his general posts). Real life doesn't work like this, so, IMNSHO, neither should a game which is designed to mimic something which can happen in life. If I have all the time in the world, I can probably plan a perfect turn as well (or not - at some point I am going to think, "this is the best possible thing I can do", and will no doubt have missed something basic which would be better).

By only having four minutes to complete a turn, it forces you to act swiftly, and make decisions quickly - some of which will not be the best decisions, and some will be very rash, which brings all coaches to a more or less level playing field, once the newer guys get up to speed.

There are lots of situations covered by the rules which you don't often see in an actual game, yet the rules exist anyway. Things such as Interceptions, which occur when you have a player between a thrower and receiver. When you have time to plan your turn, you can usually avoid having intercepters, so this rarely comes up in game (outside of a player having pass block, of course).

I know some people complain that you can't get a 'true' four minute turn in TT, because your opponent can hold things up by taking their time making decisions in your turn, etc, and they are right - but only when the opposing coach is being difficult. I would expect my opponent to be as considerate of me as I would be of him, and resolve out of turn actions in a timely manner. If he does not, he is not someone I would want to play again anyway...

Quite frankly, the four minute turn is somewhat excessive. It is possible to plan and move your team in under two minutes, which still gives you time for all those out of turn events, such as pass blocks, for example, within your turn.

I am presently playing in a Cyanide league, with two minute turns. To date, I have had four turnovers due to the timer, primarily because I was hedging whether or not to make dice rolls which may be turn ending... lol

Yes, things are different in computer versions, as the clock stops when actions are being undertaken, but the principle remains the same.

The two "factions" in this matter are going to have to agree to disagree on how to play the game.

Personally, I will still continue to try to keep my turns within the four minute limit in TT, as this is what the rules state I must do. Otherwise, I may as well just say that any dice result means whatever I want it to mean, because "I don't want to play that particular rule", which is basically the same thing as disregarding the four minute turn limit. Unless my Commissioner is enforcing the four minute turn limit, I don't care how long you take, even though this will continue to cost me wins - I am comfortable knowing that I am playing within the rules of the game.

All this is IMNSHO. Please feel free to disagree with me, but please let's not turn this into a flame war.

Cheers,


Nestyr

[Wanchor]

I know some people complain that you can't get a 'true' four minute turn in TT, because your opponent can hold things up by taking their time making decisions in your turn, etc, and they are right - but only when the opposing coach is being difficult. I would expect my opponent to be as considerate of me as I would be of him, and resolve out of turn actions in a timely manner. If he does not, he is not someone I would want to play again anyway...

It's common enough in our league to ask for the timer to be paused or for the opposing coach to be told to hurry up, and we all understand that we're on the clock and it's nothing personal (although there was some short-temperedness about it when the league was new). It's an important rule, I agree, but it doesn't need to be so hard and fast as to be a source of possible manipulation or destructiveness. Drinks get spilled, rulebooks are checked, phones ring...life happens.

But four minutes is usually more than enough.