Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[Corvidius]

I want to be very very very clear ... I'm fine if someone wanted to add a house rules to a limited TV difference environment where Piling On did not allow Claw or Mighty Blow to work on the re-rolled result (regardless of whether it is Injury or Armour).

I openly and fully and completely reject the statement that the following are too powerful even in a limited TV difference league:

1) Claw stacking with Mighty Blow. If this was true Skaven, Pro and Wood Elves would be too difficult to play. So the fact that your AV 9 player can now die ... get over it and move one ... all the AV 7 races got over this a long time ago.

2) Piling On allowing you to re-roll the injury roll. Running the math many times I cannot agree with this. Especially consider the fix Ian and I suggestion could be considered is light years better than moving PoN back to an AV only re-roll. It was way too weak in LRB 4.0.

3) Mighty Blow working on the Injury roll. Seriously ... no. Get over your pixels dying from time to time.

Tom/Galak

Primarily a TT Player but recently started on Fumbbl to see what the fuss was about and my reaction to that is:

1.) +1, Cause I have Wood Elf linos and they are 70k basic and get crumped by MB just as easily.

2.) 50/50, I don't do the sorts of equations necessary to run the numbers myself so can't dispute this but I still believe a rerolled injury is too brutal (That might be the Wood Elf in me, the Ogre is simply cheering).

3.) +1 but you can tell that you're getting fed up of this thread as the pixel comment sounded a little cheeky.

Guys, none of you are going to convince each other and you're all entitled to your views (And me mine, see above and previous comments) but ultimately they are going to have just as much effect on each other or the rules (except the leave it alone people as they win by default).

To be honest, I was happy playing 3rd Ed, happy to play 4th Ed, Happy to play 5th Ed and strangely enough happy to play 6th/CRP as is. In Tabletop the controls are inherent in the system as you'll be playing friends, for fun and your playing styles will generally evolve at the same rate. In Fumbbl you really can play a LOT of games in not a lot of time so individual games do mean less (unless players die horrifically and then for some reason it actually seems much worse even though your awesome team may only be a week old). Everything seems to happen at an unnaturally quick rate.

If you're happy enough to play it as is, and Galak suggested some House Rules for those that aren't happy with it, then what's to discuss? I believe Fend is a great skill, my friends disagree so don't take it. I can't convince them, they can't convince me (the also can't convince me that Amazons are broken but that's another story) but we agree to disagree and I keep taking human Lineman with Fend and they keep taking Block.

Some things won't change, accept that fact and continue playing the greatest Fantasy Footbal Game in the whole goddamn world (*citation needed).




ps. Don't feed the Trolls, even if they are Really Hungry.

[GalakStarscraper]

Guys, none of you are going to convince each other and you're all entitled to your views (And me mine, see above and previous comments)

But the thing is (and I acknowledge you said what I'm going to say but I still want to say it) ... I'm willing to actually concede a change to the rules in the context of the heavily house ruled environement that 15% TV is. IE that is already a house ruled league so one more house rule could be required to handle the issue that the restricted TV caused.

What is kiling me is the comments suggesting that Mighty Blow affecting AV 7 is "too powerful". Which I'm seeing over and over and over. Its just not ... I say that with all confidence.

So what gets me is I listened ... I digested ... I've suggested that for the specific house ruled environment that matched up with a suggestion that another former BBRC member made with the same information.

What gets me is we tried to listen ... but the comments that are still coming suggest that it won't be good enough until no one with AV 9 ever dies.

Tom

[Darkson]

I believe Fend is a great skill, my friends disagree so don't take it. I can't convince them, they can't convince me

Just beat them regularly using the skill, that normally brings people round - I did the same years ago with old DP and Guard (when my group was a lot greener [and bigger ] than it is now).

[garion]

What is kiling me is the comments suggesting that Mighty Blow affecting AV 7 is "too powerful". Which I'm seeing over and over and over. Its just not ... I say that with all confidence.

So what gets me is I listened ... I digested ... I've suggested that for the specific house ruled environment that matched up with a suggestion that another former BBRC member made with the same information.

What gets me is we tried to listen ... but the comments that are still coming suggest that it won't be good enough until no one with AV 9 ever dies.

Tom

I think you have taken what people have said too far. No one is saying Av9 shoudlnt be allowed to die etc....

Now I have said the MB claw stack doesnt bother me and that it is just the stack with PO that does and you have suggested a fix for that which is great

However to argue the case for the people that do believe that MB Claw stack alone is too great because they have a very strong arguement-

You say that if MB on AV7 was too powerful Skaven, Pro and Wood Elves would be too difficult to play. First of I find that a little worrying that you would use them as examples to back up why av7 on Orcs or Dwarves isnt making them too weak. The three races you mentioned all have Ag4 players the elf teams throughout the team and the Skaven on 4 players, all those players have access to blodge (which is in its self a great defence, Orcs and Dwarves do not except on doubles). So the Ag4 and blodge makes those players incredibly hard to pin down and if they want to they can limit the bashy teams to only having one blitz a turn all game which significantly reduces the chances of causing serious damage. This is something Orcs and Dwarves simply cannot do. Dwarves especially have a completely one dimensional game plan and have little in the way of options for changing tactics mid game. They do still have some coverage with thick skull though which is quite useful against the killer teams.

Also the 3 teams above also have very very fast players so they can run away and out manouver bashy teams. The Pro Elves are the best passing team in the game along with High Elves, the wood elves have this option too and have the best player in the game in their roster (WD). Skaven have GR also one of the best players in the game who can do anything and everything while the rest of your team get beat up. So to say that av7 isnt a problem for those races so why should it be for the normally Av9 teams is a bit too simple a view to take because those av9 teams are very limited in their approach to the game.

No one is saying they dont want Av9 players to die but you seem to be suggesting that Claw on its own for the Av roll or Claw with MB wouldnt be enough to hurt av9. It would. The best comparison for this would probably be to compare Orc or Dwarves facing the killer teams at a high Tv in CRP/LRB6 to when LRB4 killer teams played against LRB4 Norse at a high TR. That is the sort of difference in qualiy of the teams at a high level. As you know Norse had little to no chance at that level even though PO was Av only then (hence the good upgrade to Norse). They just couldnt compete with the MB bashy teams had en masse back then and that is esentially what Orcs and Dwarves have been reduced too now which simply cannot be disputed.

The other big problem with the MB Claw stack is how redundant it makes all big guys at a high TV. Small leagues like the one I play in do not face this problem because at most we have 14 games a season then restart. But Leagues that continue from season to season with the same teams and rosters will find that Big Guys against the Claw Mb PO stack are worthless. They take a huge chunk of TV and they do not usually have block coverage. So a Norse lineman is better equiped to deal with killer players than a Big Guy. This is certainly something I feel does need to be addressed. Because in these lengthy leagues you are strangely better of firing your big guy for the nasty games and getting a Wizard or what ever other Inducement you want.

However the MB Claw stack is not something I have a problem with but as you can see I can certainly see why people do believe that is a problem. (Although I personally do think something needs to be done there to protect big guys a little because they are too weak against said teams now)

The problem I have said all along is the Stack with PO, and the fix you suggested is a really good start and Im sure I'm not the only one that really appreciates you actually taking to time to think about it and I would personally love to see that play tested to see how much of a difference that would make.

Your suggested house rule -

Piling On (Strength)
The player may use this skill after he has made a block as part of one of his Block or Blitz Actions, but only if the Piling On player is currently standing adjacent to the victim and the victim was Knocked Down. You may re-roll the Armour roll or Injury roll for the victim, but you may not use your player's armour or injury modifying skills (like Mighty Blow or Claw) on the re-rolled result. The Piling On player is Placed Prone in his own square -- it is assumed that he rolls back there after flattening his opponent (do not make an Armour roll for him as he has been cushioned by the other player!). Piling On does not cause a turnover unless the Piling On player is carrying the ball. Piling On cannot be used with the Stab or Chainsaw skills.

[Mirascael]

What gets me is we tried to listen ... but the comments that are still coming suggest that it won't be good enough until no one with AV 9 ever dies.

Pretty bold statement considering that the guys telling you Clawpomb might be a bit overpowered, actually dominate the environment the compete in with like 38-1-1 records with exactly that combo.

It's completely beyond me how you and Ian would continue to suggest these chaos/nurgle-coaches, who claim it had become way to easy to win games now (as every other game of them is over by turn 3 or so), would merely add to the stack of pixel-hugging cry-babies, essentially.

To me, these ridiculous allegations would appear to be an easy to see through diversionary manoeuvre to distract from the implication that you might have pushed through a massive game-design fail with regard to Clawpomb in perpetual leagues.

To be precisely clear: Claw in isolation is an example of superior skill design as it constitutes an ingenious balancing feedback function regarding the environment a team competes in, but the more statements you make, the more I am inclined to assume that this has merely been implemented accidentally. Claw is not the issue anyway, the problem is MB/PO vs AV 7 (and, in the case of MB, always has been, even though wood elfs suggested otherwise in the past due to the fact that they have had access to a tree who was able to soak up and prevent tons of damage in perpetual leagues).

If you'd weight skills properly (i. e. split MB and PO), people would no longer be able to rely on shallow cookiecutter-builds but had to adapt to the environment they play in. That way you'd put in place multiple control feedback loops for perpetual leagues encouraging depth, variety and diversity instead of promoting the shallow game-experience of high-TV Blood Bowl. Hell, with MB and PO split you'd enable dedicated coaches to focus on bloodshedding even more (so much for the dim-witted pixel-hugging cry-baby allegations that inevitably succeeds any non-fanboy comment on this issue).

[Darkson]

One or two coaches with very good records (one of which [RandomOracle] is a very good coach with pretty much any team) verses many, many leagues and coaches where it's "normal".

So if a WE coach goes 38-1, does that mean we should nerf WEs? Etc, etc, etc..

[Darkson]

Because in these lengthy leagues you are strangely better of firing your big guy for the nasty games and getting a Wizard or what ever other Inducement you want.

Team management and/or player turnover - maybe this will surprise you, but that was a design goal for LRB5 as well.

[Wanchor]

I can't believe how insanely huge this thread has gotten since the last time I crapped in it. I'd like to see that sarcastic Chaos team's record after playing a dozen games, I think Fend is an underrated skill (and Thick Skull, really), I don't have a problem with the killskills and I wish garion would use a comma now and then.

WhineBowl rules.

[Mirascael]

One or two coaches with very good records (one of which [RandomOracle] is a very good coach with pretty much any team) verses many, many leagues and coaches where it's "normal".

So if a WE coach goes 38-1, does that mean we should nerf WEs? Etc, etc, etc..

And what has that to do with anything? My point was that, if a chaos coach goes 38-1-1 and claims it was ridiculously easy with Clawpomb-support, why do you guys persist to once more invoke your pixel-hugging cry-baby template? I mean, it is obvious that this scheme can not be applied here, it's simply not valid for these coaches, even you should realize that. And yet you guys continue to deny anything they say as neglectible pixel-hugger whining.

Predictably, you came up with something completely unrelated though. Why am I not surprised about that at all?

[garion]

Because in these lengthy leagues you are strangely better of firing your big guy for the nasty games and getting a Wizard or what ever other Inducement you want.

Team management and/or player turnover - maybe this will surprise you, but that was a design goal for LRB5 as well.

So let me get this right, your telling me that the BBRC intentionally made Claw, MB + PO combo so good that people strategically have to fire their big guys when they are playing a team with a lot of this combo so they can get more inducements?

Yeah nice one

Chairman: Hey coach got some bad news we are playing this horrible team tomorrow full of killer players.
Coach: Thats okay we have some hard hitters too. Like our Ogre and two star players.
Chairman: Thats not the bad news.
Coach: Oh whats happened
Chairman: We are 100k points better than them
Coach: err points what are you talking about, thats a good thing isnt it?
Chairman: it means they can bribe the ref and foul as as much as they like.
Coach: really thats in the rules. Hmm sounds a bit odd. So what can we do.
Chairman: Well I fired our ogre
Coach: WHAT I dont understand - what what the hell did you do that for he is our cas leader this season
Chairman: But if we fire him we can get a wizard for the game.
Coach: But what about the rest of the season.
Chairman: we can buy another rookie one after this game. They would kill him with ease anyway.
Coach: errr... well i guess thats not too bad then, at least we have our star blitzer.
Chairman: well actually....
Coach: You havent fired him too have you?
Chairman: affriad so.
Coach: what for?
Chairman: Well the NAF believed our team was still a little too strong to get a wizard so we got rid of him too and it gives us a little spare change.
Coach: so let me get this straight you got rid of 2 of our best players to get a wizard and a bit of money.
Chairman: Well... i actually got rid of our other star player too, because i figured he would die anyway, may as well cash in while we can
Coach:WHAT that leaves us with 10 players
Chairman: thats okay we will get a journeyman
Coach: whats a journeyman?
Chairman: just a really useless player that cant do anything right.
Coach: But... but.
Chairman: dont whinge these are the rules
Coach: but.... but...but they dont make sense

Sometime passes:

Chairman: got some more bad news
Coach : oh what now
Chairman: the killer team has just got rid of all its Re-rols except 1
Coach: re-rolls what the hell are you talking about?
Chairman: thats not important, what is important is we now have to fire a few more good players with skills otherwise they will still be able to bribe the ref.
Coach: my god what happened to this game.

[Darkson]

I didn't intentionally do anything (I'm not part of the BBRC, and never was), but it was a stated design goal to make player turnover/management part of the game.

If you feel you're not getting enough bang-for-buck of your BGs, you cut them. Other coaches disagree.

And can you point out where a coach said it was ridiculously easy? If it was RandomOracle, using the flawed Cyanide MM, then it's got no relevance to the discussion (as it's to easy to concede on the Cyanide version). (This is a genuine question, as I don't recall it.)

[garion]

I didn't intentionally do anything (I'm not part of the BBRC, and never was), but it was a stated design goal to make player turnover/management part of the game.

If you feel you're not getting enough bang-for-buck of your BGs, you cut them. Other coaches disagree.

And can you point out where a coach said it was ridiculously easy? If it was RandomOracle, using the flawed Cyanide MM, then it's got no relevance to the discussion (as it's to easy to concede on the Cyanide version). (This is a genuine question, as I don't recall it.)

Sorry you are right, I have edited that (part about BBRC) not sure about the RO thing I didnt say he said it was ridiculously easy. Also it was on fumbbl not MM so there isnt the problem with conceeding. But thats not really important anyway.

Anyway the long post at the top of this page raises many issues most importantly how the combo makes teams like Orcs and Dwarves as weak as Norse were at a high TR in LRB4. So while the intentions were clear and I and almost everyone agrees with the intentions I cant see how this can be disputed.

[lunchmoney]

Chairman: Hey coach got some bad news we are playing this horrible team tomorrow full of killer players.
Coach: Thats okay we have some hard hitters too. Like our Ogre and two star players.
...............

This whole thing made me smile

[Carnis]

I didn't intentionally do anything (I'm not part of the BBRC, and never was), but it was a stated design goal to make player turnover/management part of the game.

If you feel you're not getting enough bang-for-buck of your BGs, you cut them. Other coaches disagree.

And can you point out where a coach said it was ridiculously easy? If it was RandomOracle, using the flawed Cyanide MM, then it's got no relevance to the discussion (as it's to easy to concede on the Cyanide version). (This is a genuine question, as I don't recall it.)

RO is playing in fumbbl now with the 38-1-1 record, but he did say about 30% of his opponents conceded in cyanide, in fumbbl the % is about 5 I guess. Will be interesting how far he gets in Crown of Sands, the first LRB6 fumbbl major (no 15% TV limit, majorly pimped up teams).

This discussion is reaching epic proportions =], I really love Garion's latest "talk" between team managers haha.

Anyway, it's obvious nobody's getting anywhere with this. The proposed fix to PO listed by Galak & Ian has been playtested actually, as the cyanide game originally couldnt use modifiers with piling on (or dirty player on injury) due to bad coding/implementation. It was more like a 1 player per team skill then, not a good skill at all really, much worse than mb. It's a pointless approach though as fumbbl doesnt intend to apply house rules, I guess most of the coaches who still post here just want an admission of guilt, that they are really not going to get ^^. Also I fear really that proposed change/houserule would probably just turn the balance of power in the favour of the chaos coaches, as their AV8 players are now much safer against dwarven MBPO while their MBClaw is still working just as before with no drawbacks.

Garion has a point, that comparing MA4-5/AG3/AV9 teams dying to clawmbpo (especially lizardmen, who have to also field 4-9 stunties) is not really compareable to AV7 teams dying to MB spam. Also MBPO really still kills norse in fumbbl, I havent had the time to try massfend high TV, but they really ARE still having issues with their AV as there are virtually no norse teams in B's higher TV brackets (well, some: http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=teams ... 10&race=54 ). Elves can counter it much better with ubiquitous blodge & a lot of SS/guard. Dying still happens to elves, but as it stands out having +1 to all ballcarrying duties, +3-4 movement + a few very broken players such as wardancers/gutters + strip ball negates a lot of games and tweaks the stats to the Wood/pro/high/DE elves/skaven's favour. The thing with this is though it's been long accepted that these are the top teams, and there are actually working very generic and well designed built in counters for most of their plays (mass tackle to counter dodge, guards in cage corners & blodge/surehands carrier to counter strip), and also there are counters of counters that are both intuitive and add to the game (wrestle to counter block, tackle to counter dodge, leaping guards to cancel guards).

I'm not saying I have a fix, or that a fix is necessary, but I do acknowledge Tom will never agree on this matter with the community, but nor has the community really agreed with itself on it so that's not a big issue then.

[Carnis]

Oh, about my last post, it seems Tom did agree that the combo may be too powerful in longrun perpetual houseruled leagues, which sort of is an "admission of guilt", so I dont think us fumbblers have anything to gain from this discussion anymore . Koadah pulled some nice stats from fumbbl again, to add to the discussion! Anyway here they are and they prove that nurgle really is the new chaos at 5,93cas/game over chaos' meager 4.88!

I like PO. It means that other teams like humans, zons etc can get nasty too.

If I was going to tweak it I would disallow using claw & PO in the action. (for fear of breaking the claw or injuring yourself with it.)
A chance to injure yourself is good too.

Even in the ox Chaos's overall stats are not that impressive.
All games

At 1800+ they are barely above 50%
1800+

They don't start to get going until over 2000 and become dominant past 2200.

2000+

2200+

What's interesting about it is how undead go from 53% at 1800 to 12% at 2200 . Talk about sweetspotting! Even norse go down from 41% to 13% ;D