Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[Thadrin]

I cant believe you said that. Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.

Has someone been listening to Taylor Swift?

Who?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkUrSvMOvjY

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Well dode I think you missed the point. I am in the Carnis, RandomOracle camp on this one, having a killer team myself on fumbbl (although not as good as either of theirs). You are saying that your 1600 TV Dark Elfs had more of a chance vs 2190 TV Orcs than if you were using a 1940 TV Dark Elf team ? Really ? You would still have a wizard. You would have had more blodge/guard/sidestep, a deeper bench and 2 babes or an apo. Of course If you have an agility team vs a bash team and play a game with a wizard where the bash player has 4 men sent off and causes no cas you are probably going to beat him, it is a game of dice after all. However Morg vs a chaos team is simply another clawpomb victim. It is worrying that you seem to believe that these inducements, supposed to give the underdog a 30% shot give them more than this.

[garion]

Garion, I think you are starting to repeat yourself. IMO, the problem of mbclawpo is that there are a few teams that have NO way to cover for it, namely lizardmen who become hopeless at higher TV..

Sorry my mistake I miss read that lol Hthark is a great star player.

I am repeating myself on the other point yes. Because I still have not seen a counter arguement to that at all. Which as you point out as well Lizardmen are one of many teams that simply cannot compete at a high TV now.

Also Jimmy fantastic is correct. Morg who is meant to be the best star player in the game according to his price does just become another ClawPOMB victim. He stands very little chance of lasting even until half time because of the combos effectiveness.

[Mirascael]

No matter what inducements are at your disposal: A developed Clawpomb-team against a non-mutation team in LRB6 is like a high-end constructed-deck against a theme-deck in Magic.

With regard to perpetual leagues, LRB6 is an epic fail, it's that simple.

Disagreeing on this indicates that you're either not playing in a perpetual league, your league contains no decent nurgle/chaos coaches or you think that perpetual leagues should be dominated by chaos and nurgle.

Every other game decided within the first 3 turns and/or by coin toss isn't particularly awesome game-design-wise.

[B SIDE]

The magic analogy sounds like a good one. I seem to recall that there were a lot of rules added to magic that were designed to prevent heavily "constructed" decks from dominating in competitive play. (I used to play a liche/mirror universe deck that was always good for a laugh- when it worked). But (via my casual reading of this thread) I thought that the stats showed these killer teams in BB were still winning less than 60% of their games. Is that right? I know it's a very strong combo, but 60% doesn't sound terribly broken to me. It's not exactly a Black Lotus/Channel/Fireball. (Then again, maybe in memory I'm exaggerating the efficacy of that classic magic combo.)

It's basically impossible to perfectly balance a game of this complexity. I think the designers and developers have done a very good job. House/competition rules should easily handle the fine tuning for specific formats.

[Mirascael]

If former BBRC-members and their disciples mock, ridiculize and bully coaches such as Flix and RandomOracle for presenting perfectly reasonable arguments, why would I expect them to take anyone seriously at all who does not belong to their inner circle?

Huh? Mirascael ... do you even know who was actually on the BBRC? (Serious question). I've never seen Doubleskulls do the above and I've always found RandomOracle to present solid well written posts that I wouldn't treat that way.

So who do you think was on the BBRC that did the above accused actions?

Tom

I want to be very very very clear ... I'm fine if someone wanted to add a house rules to a limited TV difference environment where Piling On did not allow Claw or Mighty Blow to work on the re-rolled result (regardless of whether it is Injury or Armour).

I openly and fully and completely reject the statement that the following are too powerful even in a limited TV difference league:

1) Claw stacking with Mighty Blow. If this was true Skaven, Pro and Wood Elves would be too difficult to play. So the fact that your AV 9 player can now die ... get over it and move one ... all the AV 7 races got over this a long time ago.

2) Piling On allowing you to re-roll the injury roll. Running the math many times I cannot agree with this. Especially consider the fix Ian and I suggestion could be considered is light years better than moving PoN back to an AV only re-roll. It was way too weak in LRB 4.0.

3) Mighty Blow working on the Injury roll. Seriously ... no. Get over your pixels dying from time to time.

Tom/Galak

I mean, who do you address if not Flix, RandomOracle, Garion, Carnis etc.?

And btw:

Since when have Skaven, Pro Elfs and Wood Elfs really been competitive in perpetual leagues? Most perpetual leagues I've played in where either completely dominated by the big 4 or enforced racial restrictions (and even then the str-races ruled). And it was only the tree which would keep woodies in the business occasionally.

[Mirascael]

The magic analogy sounds like a good one. I seem to recall that there were a lot of rules added to magic that were designed to prevent heavily "constructed" decks from dominating in competitive play. (I used to play a liche/mirror universe deck that was always good for a laugh- when it worked). But (via my casual reading of this thread) I thought that the stats showed these killer teams in BB were still winning less than 60% of their games. Is that right? I know it's a very strong combo, but 60% doesn't sound terribly broken to me. It's not exactly a Black Lotus/Channel/Fireball. (Then again, maybe in memory I'm exaggerating the efficacy of that classic magic combo.)

In fact, Clawpomb is just that: The equivalent to the Channel-Fireball combo in the ancient times of Magic.

[dode74]

Well dode I think you missed the point. I am in the Carnis, RandomOracle camp on this one, having a killer team myself on fumbbl (although not as good as either of theirs). You are saying that your 1600 TV Dark Elfs had more of a chance vs 2190 TV Orcs than if you were using a 1940 TV Dark Elf team ? Really ? You would still have a wizard. You would have had more blodge/guard/sidestep, a deeper bench and 2 babes or an apo. Of course If you have an agility team vs a bash team and play a game with a wizard where the bash player has 4 men sent off and causes no cas you are probably going to beat him, it is a game of dice after all. However Morg vs a chaos team is simply another clawpomb victim. It is worrying that you seem to believe that these inducements, supposed to give the underdog a 30% shot give them more than this.

Depends on how you play. Morg tied the Orcs up better than any Elf could, which allowed my elves to run around at leisure. 1940TV or 1600TV, the shot is still 30% - looks like it came off for me

And of course I wouldn't take Morg against a clawed chaos team at that level. With 590TV a wizard and either some linefodder (which are also fouling fodder) or apoth/babes (or a mix) would seem far more sensible.

Disagreeing on this indicates that you're either not playing in a perpetual league, your league contains no decent nurgle/chaos coaches or you think that perpetual leagues should be dominated by chaos and nurgle.

Oh well, I guess that ends the discussion then

[Mirascael]

Oh well, I guess that ends the discussion then

Well, the statement that Sneaky Git was a "good counter" vs. Clawpomb came from within the BBRC.

I genuinely can't think of more proof of having no clue about fundemental game mechanics. It's like claiming Healing Salve were a good burn-counter in Magic.

[dode74]

There is a difference between hard counters and soft counters.

[daloonieshaman]

There is a difference between hard counters and soft counters.

cost

[Thadrin]

Mirascael - If it's really that much of a problem in your league then HOUSE RULE IT.
You've been given a perfectly good suggestion by two members of the defunct BBRC to do just that.
If that isn't enough for you then tough...because, as we all know, the main rule book ain't changing for the forseeable future.

Clapomb is, in essence, Min-maxing. There are very few, if any, games systems that don't have it. There will always be exploits and loopholes found and used by a few idiots who think winning is everything. If Clopomb is the worst in BB - requiring at least four skill advances to be really useful, and only available to a small number of teams - then things aren't too bad.

This thread is very close to losing any sort of useful debate. The shadow of the padlock is close...

[daloonieshaman]

Mirascael - If it's really that much of a problem in your league then HOUSE RULE IT.
You've been given a perfectly good suggestion by two members of the defunct BBRC to do just that.
If that isn't enough for you then tough...because, as we all know, the main rule book ain't changing for the forseeable future.

Clapomb is, in essence, Min-maxing. There are very few, if any, games systems that don't have it. There will always be exploits and loopholes found and used by a few idiots who think winning is everything. If Clopomb is the worst in BB - requiring at least four skill advances to be really useful, and only available to a small number of teams - then things aren't too bad.

This thread is very close to losing any sort of useful debate. The shadow of the padlock is close...

there is always the ever popular bounty ....

[Mirascael]

Mirascael - If it's really that much of a problem in your league then HOUSE RULE IT.
You've been given a perfectly good suggestion by two members of the defunct BBRC to do just that.
If that isn't enough for you then tough...because, as we all know, the main rule book ain't changing for the forseeable future.

Clapomb is, in essence, Min-maxing. There are very few, if any, games systems that don't have it. There will always be exploits and loopholes found and used by a few idiots who think winning is everything. If Clopomb is the worst in BB - requiring at least four skill advances to be really useful, and only available to a small number of teams - then things aren't too bad.

Vaild point. Unfortunately, the environment I play in won't ever use houserules.

Well, I've simply joined the bandwaggon and switched to Nurgle/Chaos too as everything else appears pale in comparison to these 2 rosters. Sad but true that so many core races of the warhammer fantasy universe have joined the humans and become permanent residents of tier-2-city.

[Darkson]

Vaild point. Unfortunately, the environment I play in won't ever use houserules.

Which means the environment is at fault not the rules.

This started being debated in the pub on Saturday night after the ARBBL - thankfully Match of the Day came on the big screen, which was much more interesting.