Defensive formation for dark elves

[martynq]

Having established which were the standard defensive formations in a discussion towards the end of last week, I thought I'd now try to see which was the best for using with my dark elves.

I'm guessing that the 3-4-4 is not the best... is that more suitable to bashy teams who can put 3 tough guys on the line?

Wesleytj recommends 3-7-1 for wood elves on his page. Would 3-7-1 also be the best for dark elves?

If so, what would be the best player (including skills) in each location? I guess either a blitzer or a witch elf would be the player at the back (the "deep safety"??).

Martyn

[Dangerous Dave]

I tend to be flexible and leave the set up so that you force your opponent in a paricular way. Eg you could leave both sidelines clear and have all you Elves pretty central - this allows you to move all to cover in either direction. Obviously this is not a good set up against skaven but for any teams which are not fast it gives you a decnt opportunity to move all your Elves into a good defensive position. It also will give your Witch Elves a possible target to push off the pitch.

Of course you could also put lots on the line. THis will work if you are not up against a heavy av bashing team and especially if they are down players. Of course you need a sweeper or 2.

My view on set ups is to


ensure that you can cover all areas of your side of the pitch defensively

have an option to send some raiders downfield to pick up a dropped or fumbled ball or put pressure on a lone back

force your opponent in one direction (eg wide or central)


The trouble with standard set ups is its fairly obvious what to do against them.....


Dave

[Asmodan]

I don´t think i can help you much with formations as i almost never have 11 player to set up, but when i set up with dark elves i usually put witch elves behind in the middle so that they can blitz anyone that tries to get past my defense.
I also like to keep my blitzers away from the side line when i am setting up, as i find them more useful when they can take advantages of their movement.


Asmodan

[Marcus]

Martyn: Similar to my previous post - "what defensive formation should I use with dark elves?" is the wrong question

You should be asking yourself "how will I set up to frustrate my opponent on this kickoff for this drive?"

Have a look at his team, have a look at his style, then place players in such a way that when he tries to do what you think he'll want to do you'll screw him up.

[roysorlie]

I always try to set up for mobility. Orc's and dwarfs usually try to pin down as many of your players as possible. I like keeping my elves closser together, leaving the sidelines open. I ALWAYS run upfield with a blitzer (or lion warrior in my case), so that when I evetually get the ball, I have him upfield, to go score.

Have a blitzer, or which elf with tackle and/or strip ball. Preferably Leap as well. If you get a double on a lineelf, give him guard, and use him defensively, trying to put pressure on the ball carrier, and give you an assist.

Try to find, and exploit a breach in his box, (if he uses one). Get a few sidesteppers to stand in the way. SLow him down, if you can't get to the ball carrier, force him to move only a square or two every turn if he stays with his box. If he tries to break free, pounce on him. Keep your thrower back, to snatch up the ball if you can.

Keep your elves away from his. He always has to close, you keep dodging a square back. Bleed him. nick at his flanks.

This tactic has won me many many games.

Against fast teams, like skaven and other elf teams, have a blitzer/which elf ready, preferably with leap. You only get one chance to snatch the ball. Fail that, and he'll score. Keep pressure on his players. Create tackle zones like earlier discussed.

You could try to create a blodge/shadowing/sidestepper to annoy the hell out of him.

Try to make him make as many dice rolls as possible to achieve his goal. Anticipate his actions. Scrutinize where he positions his players on his lineup. Know your enemy!!

Stopping fast teams, is more difficult than slow teams. Flexibility is the key. make sure your key interceptor players can reach most of the field.

Good luck

[lawquoter]

i usually put witch elves behind in the middle so that they can blitz anyone that tries to get past my defense.

I do the same. I use my witch elf as a "free safety." On D she is roving behind the middle line of elves and crashes into anything that comes close to breaking through. She also is key for taking on big guys, so if they have a Troll/Ogre on the line, I might put her just out of their blitzing range and then smack into them right off the bat, hopefully putting him down.

[Zombie]

I find that the title "defensive formation for dark elves" is a bit off. The formation you use should depend a lot less on what team you play than what team you play against. For example, the 3-4-4 can work well against skaven, but is no use against dwarves.

The best general advice i can give you is try to figure out what the other team's offensive strategy is (usually you can tell this from their roster, the skills they gave to their players and the distribution of comps and TDs in their team), and try to design on paper one or two setups that you think would make their plan as difficult to carry out as possible. See if it works, and if not, figure out where the holes were and fix it before next game!


Edit: damn, Marcus already said the same thing. Well, that's more for you to read! That'll teach me to answer posts that are one or two days old without reading the other answers first.

[martynq]

You are, of course, correct - the defensive formation does depend on which team I am playing against... and I had originally intended to make such a comment in my original post. (Indeed, when I had originally types this message at the end of last week I had put such a thing in there, but didn't have time to post it, or Talk-BB went down, or something...)

Anyway, what should I be looking at in my opponent's roster to give me clues about positioning?

Which formations are good against which teams?

You say that 3-4-4 is good against skaven, but doesn't that leave me located to near the Line of Scrimmage and hence vulnerable to the skaven extreme movement? I would have thought I needed some players located deep to help blitz gutter runners who manage to break through.

What is good against dwarves? I would have though I needed to set up in such a way that he can't put tackle zones on all my players - so as to give myself at least some moves that don't require dice, but I haven't got a clue what formation will allow this.

Martyn

[Marcus]

Which formations are good against which teams?

You must unlearn what you have learned. Stop thinking in terms of set plays or the "right" way to do things. It's stifling your play.

You say that 3-4-4 is good against skaven, but doesn't that leave me located to near the Line of Scrimmage and hence vulnerable to the skaven extreme movement? I would have thought I needed some players located deep to help blitz gutter runners who manage to break through.

Getting close....

Try this:

- Put your team on the pitch in a "best guess" defensive formation.
- Have a look at your opponents team. Put yourself in the coach's shoes, figure out how you'd get through the defence you just set up. Use past plays by this coach as a guide for what they like to do
- Tweak your players to make it harder to do what you just worked out the opponent may want to do. Look over it again, rinse, repeat.
- Kick the ball to them. Watch carefully what they do. Particularly what they do first of all and where they blitz.
- If you turn them over and score, set up the exact same way again. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If they score on you, have a look how they did it. putting more strength/assists/skills where they blitzed is a good start. moving players forward or backward based on where you needed them in the last drive is also a good idea.

If you have to, write stuff down as you play. Memorising a playbook will get you nowhere if there's no _understanding_ behind what you're doing.

[Sputnik]

You may also want to carefully watch the opponent playing what I call "children's blood bowl" (what I have to do sometimes because my mind can't cope otherwise).

I tend to sometimes place a die on that square I want to move for example the ball carrier. Many coaches count the squares with their fingers to 'have a look' how far players can go. Have a close look which squares they choose or where they want (!) to position players. Sometimes they need to blitz someone first, then move the cage or build one on their intended target squares.

Think in the opponent's turn as well and watch them develop their plan in such a way. This helps you in your turn as well (for example to put s.o. deep or to the other side of the pitch where onely one of your players covers the whole space).

Especially if they don't manage (like only a both down result when both have block) you can observe their plan B since the hole was not there.

I hope that helps

Sputnik

[Grumbledook]

God i never count out stuff unless its my turn, if it goes tits up then showing them where i was planning on going doesn't matter ;] If it didn't go tits up then my players would be there anyway.

[martynq]

You must unlearn what you have learned. Stop thinking in terms of set plays or the "right" way to do things. It's stifling your play.

I know... I am being a bit lame, really, aren't I?

To use that naff management-speak stuff, I'm just feeling that before I can "think outside the box", I need to work out where the box is!!!

I tried writing a reply to the rest of what you wrote, but have just deleted the whole lot since it just came across like a whiney schoolkid. It's probably a loss of confidence thing. Too many losses where I just couldn't do anything...

Apologies to all and much gratitude for the patience you are showing.

Martyn

[Sputnik]

Grumbledook wrote:

God i never count out stuff

Three of my opponents at the dutch open did (in their turn, of course).

It helped me too (at least a bit).

Sputnik

[Dangerous Dave]

Hmmm why not count out squares to where you don't want to go!

A kind of double bluff!


Dave

[Deathwing]

Wow. You guys take this far too seriously. As I seem to spend most of my tourney time on the lower 'we're not very good so we might as well have a laff' tables anyway, I might well take up a stunty team.
Formations, strategies, mind games??? Grab a gobbo..throw it..eat it...'AVE ITTT!!!!