Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[Corvidius]

Don't get me wrong, i'm sure the Stats bear out that they are underperforming at high tvs but i don't think it necessarily follows that they can't compete. My first team was Lizards and i wholly admit i was terrible with them, 30 straight losses in fact. But i have seen some fantastic coaches using them in tabletop and being exposed to the differing styles of play I've got a lot more respect for them.

I've heard it said that Lizards have to play the fast game against the bash teams and the bash game against the agile teams. Maybe the issue is how they're played or who's attracted to play them. I know i failed early with them because my positioning game was terrible.

It's a thought at least.

[garion]

Believe me, Lizards are my favourite race. You may have seen my lizardmen playbook on plasmoids website - http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB6Playbooks.htm
They just cannot compete in a perpetual league anymore. If the league is under 40 games yes they will do very well. But if that season finishes and then starts again with the same rosters they will be completely destroyed by any teams with mutation access because of the CPOMB. They even struggle against teams with a lot of tackle MB PO. Because their Skinks get injured so easily.

They are one of the races that got hit hardest by the changes to the rules. Ogres obviously got it worse. But I cant think of any others that got hurt so badly.

They are still a great race for the vast majority of TT leagues though and if the league doesnt have a lot of mutation teams then they will do well but at a high TV in a perpetual league full of Claw teams they really struggle.

[dode74]

They just cannot compete in a perpetual league anymore. If the league is under 40 games yes they will do very well. But if that season finishes and then starts again with the same rosters they will be completely destroyed by any teams with mutation access because of the CPOMB. They even struggle against teams with a lot of tackle MB PO. Because their Skinks get injured so easily.

There is evidence to the contrary from last season's OCC (Season 7, so 60-70 games after start) where 5 highly developed Chaos in a 10-team league saw WElves come top and Lizzies come second.

[garion]

Well I really have to question which skills those highly developed chaos teams have chosen and also the quality of the coaches. Because against a good coach with a properly developed Chaos team you should have next to no chance of winning that encounter. The Saurus are reduced to the level of skinks because of Claw. So removing them from the pitch is pretty easy and unless all the Saurii all have Fend there is a 56% chance of removing them from the pitch with every knock down if the Chaos team are using the killer combo which they should be. Also the Chaos should collectively have high St across the team by that stage in a teams development. It should be a walk over.

Here are some of the stats I was looking for, will try and find the others later -

This is just from last week -
Teams playing above 2000TV

Lizardmen playerd 26, won 4, drew 5, lost 17 - 57 cas for, 128 against.
Only team doing worse is Ogres.
http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... -03-14.gif

[Darkson]

In a perpetual league like FUMBBL and CYANIDE, where winning does not matter one bit unless the coach wants it to matter, have a skill only accessible on doubles is no barrier at all. It may take a few more games to get, but you can play hundreds of games per week if you had the time. Money is no problem, and you can fire players that don't get the double by skill X. and start over..eventually, you can build the team to kill everyone else--and you don't really care what your record is, because you BBR (Blackbox Bash Rating) is 190 now.

In a league where winning is the goal, even in perpetual leagues where you don't restart teams every season, this combo is not a problem. You either build your teams to beat them (it can be done), or they are so caught up in causing death and destruction that their teams never make the playoffs, much less win the 'championship'.

QFT (and because you put it much better than I could manage).

[Jimmy Fantastic]

No-ones got a BBR of 190 bro. But mine is 184.47 ahhh yeahhhhh

[dode74]

Well I really have to question which skills those highly developed chaos teams have chosen and also the quality of the coaches. Because against a good coach with a properly developed Chaos team you should have next to no chance of winning that encounter. The Saurus are reduced to the level of skinks because of Claw. So removing them from the pitch is pretty easy and unless all the Saurii all have Fend there is a 56% chance of removing them from the pitch with every knock down if the Chaos team are using the killer combo which they should be. Also the Chaos should collectively have high St across the team by that stage in a teams development. It should be a walk over.

Therein lies the problem with theorycraft

The replays are on BBManager if you want to take a look - !!!OCC S7 Div1

[Steam Ball]

Garion (and others), after so much discussion, I think it should be clear that the problem has multiple factors:

a) matching rules: if focus is in plain TV and with really limited difference, ignoring purpose of each player or real coach skills... then killer guy kills the one going for TDs, and this one will only have a team for next matches thanks to journeymen rule.

b) social: in many other places, some playing styles means the guy will be "mysteriously forgotten" next time emails or phone calls are done to announce the next matches. Not so with the systems where anybody can join and play as he wants. Even the face to face factor changes things, I have seen a guy in FUMBBL not even replying to "congrats" when he scored, I doubt anybody would play with someone that only looks at the ground or the gameboard.

c) some small tweaks not getting in: PO got a proposal already, Mercs could also go for 10K base and extra 30K for skill (default is 30K and 50K), so people could pick cannon fodder cheaper and adapt for that match.

d) some rules are still missing: wizards, mercs and a couple of disruptive skills in FUMBBL, for example. Any 1+7 foul action could get a Fireball reaction, specially when the victim is in the team with just 4... 3 players in the field. Coaches that woke up with "today is a good day to die" ringing in the head would activate a Goblin team and test how much random damage they can deliver back.

e) inertia: people still play old style, no time to test new things like Fend or Wrestle or see which inducements work against killers.

So maybe best would be to let it rest and pick the topic again in some months, once things have moved to the next stable state. Then one can examine if the balance is good or not, just looking while in the transition phase is becoming a never ending thing.

[Mirascael]

I find it funny that people honestly claim that coaches who simply play the rules and build the best teams available, due to an hilariously overpowered skill combo they offer access to (which had been deliberately designed as overpowered as it is, as has been made explicitly clear multiple times by BBRC-members), would be denounced as anti-social or something and that everything would be ok with the rules (just don't use the skills literally imposed on you, lol). I really can't help it, but, to me, that sounds like living in complete denial to the fact that the BBRC have horribly messed up with crucial rules.

[Thadrin]

I don't find it funny that people honestly claim that coaches who simply exploit the rules and build the best teams for ruining everyone's enjoyment of their league, due to an extrordinarily boring skill combo they offer access to (which is perfectly balanced in normal tabletop leagues, as has been made explicitly clear multiple times by the voices of a great number of experienced coaches), would be denounced as anti-social or something and that everything would be ok with the rules (just don't use the same boring combo on every damn player, lol). I really can't help it, but, to me, that sounds like living in the real world, and ignoring the fact that the powergamers of the world will always try to win by any means in the rules.

[Mirascael]

I don't find it funny that people honestly claim that coaches who simply exploit the rules and build the best teams for ruining everyone's enjoyment of their league, due to an extrordinarily boring skill combo they offer access to (which is perfectly balanced in normal tabletop leagues, as has been made explicitly clear multiple times by the voices of a great number of experienced coaches), would be denounced as anti-social or something and that everything would be ok with the rules (just don't use the same boring combo on every damn player, lol). I really can't help it, but, to me, that sounds like living in the real world, and ignoring the fact that the powergamers of the world will always try to win by any means in the rules.

All competitive magic-players are lamers then? RandomOracle, Carnis and Garion are lamers too? People are supposed to pick far worse skills than they could?

Apart from the fact that Clawpomb is everything but "perfectly balanced":

This is 2011. Every Joe and Morg has access to the internet and will check out what strategies and tactics will work for the new tabletop-game he just acquired minis for.

With regard to rule-exploiting: How can you exploit a rule which game-designers have created deliberately to cause mass-attrition ("I'm just saying we knew exactly how powerful PO was" Galak S.)? Where exactly lies the exploit in just exactly playing the game the way it was intended (I mean, Clawpomb isn't exactly a loophole or something)? And how do you exploit "perfectly balanced" rules anyway? Or is a "normal tabletop league" supposed to last 20 games and then be reset? The rules were written with perpetual leagues in mind (at least as far as I know) so they should be supposed to work at high/max TV as well.

I can fully understand why you'd side with your buddies, your argumentation doesn't seem to make much sense though.

[WildDogs]

Where exactly lies the exploit in just exactly playing the game the way it was intended (I mean, Clawpomb isn't exactly a loophole or something)? .

I suppose it all depends upon why you play the game... I just know that I would not want to have someone in my league who thinks as you do. I am not against someone trying to win, I am not against someone trying to "play for blood". I am against someone who feels that because one combo exists that destroys other teams and thereby the owners enjoyment, it is fair and right to do so.


Do you kick sand at people when you walk on the beach... after all the sand is there and you do have feet...?

[garion]

I suppose it all depends upon why you play the game... I just know that I would not want to have someone in my league who thinks as you do. I am not against someone trying to win, I am not against someone trying to "play for blood". I am against someone who feels that because one combo exists that destroys other teams and thereby the owners enjoyment, it is fair and right to do so.

I think that exactly Miracaels point. He is saying the reason this problem does not occur so much in TT leagues is because there is a social factor defining what people can and can't take and I have seen a lot of posts now in the last few pages from people in TT leagues that say " If someone created a team like that in my TT league I would kick them out".

His point is - Galak et al. have claimed this combo is perfectly balanced in TT league play. But the fact that so many people have said they would kick people from their TT league for spamming it is evidence to the contrary.

[plasmoid]

I don't agree with Thadrin and WildDogs.
And I could never see myself pushing someone out of a league for playing within the rules.
And I've been a commish for many years.
If an element of the rules is too good, bitch about it online. But until something happens, you should either a) house rule it as a commish (if the problem is severe), or b) meta-game against it.

So on this I totally side with Mirascael and Garion.

That being said, it may be true that in a TT league, if something is very powerful, then after someone has won a season with it, it becomes a lot less attractive to do so again. Kind of a self-imposed honour system I suppose.

As Mirascael brought up M:TG I'll add my experience. M:TG has had many power-decks over time. Some were too broken and errataed. Others were beaten by active meta-gaming - which I hope fumbbl will take on as well. When a M:TG qualifier was in Copenhagen 15 years ago, I went with 4 friends. The other 3 were better players than me, and had assembled powerful decks. I had assembled a meta-deck. Of the 4 of us, I came out with the best record. Just saying

Cheers
Martin

[Darkson]

But it doesn't work in a TT league, where there is an emphasis on winning something (game, league, cup etc), as shown by the stats presented time and time again to cupcake in the monster thread (go look them up if you want them -check posts by Dode) - Chaos don't have the best win/loss record, and that's taking into account that (on Cyanide at least) they win a lot by concession.

The only time the combo might be a problem is enviroments where there is no "end result" - where you just play because you can (the Cyanide ladder for example). None of the leagues using the Cyanide tool complained it was an issue, because the coaches that spammed the combo just didn't do very well (as a rule, occasionally one would have a good season, but then that should be expected).


It all comes done to common sense. The game was designed to be played Table Top, with an "end goal" in site (league, cup, etc) even if teams played for ever. For this they work. Set-ups where teams can play perpetually (house-ruled), but with no "end goal" don't have to worry about winning, so can spam this skill, which doesn't work in the set-up the skills were designed for. If you play in one of these set-ups, you have 3 choices - house-rule it, live with it (if it can't be house ruled because the programmers are incompetent [Cyanide] or don't want to add more house rules [Christer]), or play somewhere else (different place or different section within the site [FUMBBL]).

Just don't expect the rules to change because your house-ruled environment has problems of it's own causing.
If I played in a league where a successful Dodge gave 1 SPP, I wouldn't be expecting the BBRC (when it existed) to make Elfs AG3 or Tackle a skill all players started with.
Similarly, your preferred environment makes MB/PO/Claw better than designed, so rather than trying to get the rules changed even though they work as designed when the game is played as designed, get the system you play in changed.