Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[garion]

Similarly, your preferred environment makes MB/PO/Claw better than designed

First of all it is not necessarily the case that fumbbl is my preferred environment I play TT too.

But I don't understand what you mean when you say the environment makes ClawPOMB better than it is. It uses the rules for this combo exactly as it is meant to. So the combo is working as it is meant to.

All Mirascael is pointing out is that if a league runs for long enough - there will come a point when nurgle and chaos completely dominate the league because of the power of that combo.

[Darkson]

But I don't understand what you mean when you say the environment makes ClawPOMB better than it is. It uses the rules for this combo exactly as it is meant to. So the combo is working as it is meant to.

Then go back and read what I wrote.

All Mirascael is pointing out is that if a league runs for long enough - there will come a point when nurgle and chaos completely dominate the league because of the power of that combo.

And yet that has been shown not to be the case.

[garion]

Okay re-read what you wrote and I still dont see how MM or B make the combo more powerfull than it normally is.

It is what it is.

[plasmoid]

I think Darkson has a very important point here:
Perpetual didn't mean pointless.
The rules were not designed for leagues that had unlimited games with no goal. Pointless games allow coaches to hard-core build their teams in a way that the rules just can't handle.

Let me tell you the cautionary tale of the CLBBBL - the league I used to commish for 10 years.
In the CLBBBL we had league games and friendly games.
Friendly games were games that didn't count towards your league score - games for fun, because we all love BB.
Well, slowly over the years a sub-group developed, who would play some very odd friendly games.
They didn't actually cheat - at least not to my knowledge - but they played fast teams, and 7-6 or 10-9 results were not uncommon.
You had to wonder whether anyone actually played defense in these games, but as we had no 'replay' option, there was no way to check.
Quite simply, the other teams couldn't keep up with the monster SPP-avaganza that these games were.

But how do you make actual rules for 'ethical' Blood Bowl.
In the end, it tore the league apart.

FUMBBL has house rules to combat farming.
But playing 70 games with no real point is a lighter shade of farming.
And that probably requires further house rules to handle.

Cheers
Martin

[Xeterog]

Similarly, your preferred environment makes MB/PO/Claw better than designed

First of all it is not necessarily the case that fumbbl is my preferred environment I play TT too.

But I don't understand what you mean when you say the environment makes ClawPOMB better than it is. It uses the rules for this combo exactly as it is meant to. So the combo is working as it is meant to.

All Mirascael is pointing out is that if a league runs for long enough - there will come a point when nurgle and chaos completely dominate the league because of the power of that combo.

Even if that were the case (I'm not convinced that it is)...then you look at the 'trophy wall' and see that the long term chaos/nurgle team has won much less over all than others...and probably still will get beat more times than not by a good WE team.

in FUMBBL and CYANIDE, there is no goal other than playing games. Sure, in FUMBBL there are occasional tournaments, but even those are entered mostly by TV, not winning %.

[garion]

I think Darkson has a very important point here:
Perpetual didn't mean pointless.
The rules were not designed for leagues that had unlimited games with no goal. Pointless games allow coaches to hard-core build their teams in a way that the rules just can't handle.

Let me tell you the cautionary tale of the CLBBBL - the league I used to commish for 10 years.
In the CLBBBL we had league games and friendly games.
Friendly games were games that didn't count towards your league score - games for fun, because we all love BB.
Well, slowly over the years a sub-group developed, who would play some very odd friendly games.
They didn't actually cheat - at least not to my knowledge - but they played fast teams, and 7-6 or 10-9 results were not uncommon.
You had to wonder whether anyone actually played defense in these games, but as we had no 'replay' option, there was no way to check.
Quite simply, the other teams couldn't keep up with the monster SPP-avaganza that these games were.

But how do you make actual rules for 'ethical' Blood Bowl.
In the end, it tore the league apart.

FUMBBL has house rules to combat farming.
But playing 70 games with no real point is a lighter shade of farming.
And that probably requires further house rules to handle.

Cheers
Martin

But there is a point.

There is the top 10 list - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=blackbox
I have been around 20th for the last month although dropped down to 30th now on the back of a few really bad results. I would love to be top, though I personally think that is impossible unless you play with chaos or nurlge.

There is also the championship which is a league of sorts - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=championship

There is also developing teams for majors and minors.

So it is a perpetual league of sorts. Probably the largest in existence. What difference does it make if they league never has an end? In a lot of TT leagues there are rules that stop people from getting too far ahead in games. In the TT league I play in you are not meant to have played more than 3 games more than your opponent (although it isnt really stricktly adheard to). So that isn't so different to matching games on TV, which at 15% still allows for all the inducements to come in to play. The majors and minors are similar to the end of season tourney a lot of TT leauges have. Again mine has one 1st plays 4th 2nd plays 3rd then the winners play each other, all those below that play to see who is the best loser. So it really isnt so different. It is just a lot longer and there are a lot more teams and coaches etc...

[Xeterog]

what i've found interested in that list is the race list..where dark elves have the best overall BWR (blackbox win rating) and dwarves have the best overall BBR (blackbox bash rating)..

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
didn't say the league had to have an actual end. It can be perpetual.
There just has to be goals along the way, meaning that every game matters - say that games can not be used for "farming light".

Looked at the black box numbers, though I'm not familiar with them. But it looks like there are a handful of teams ahead of chaos when it comes to actually winning anything.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

yup but they dont take into account the TV calculations. Once you reach a TV of 2000+ and above dwarves are the 4th worst performing race, only Norse, Ogres and Lizardmen are doing worse (flings and goblins arent represented). Dark Elves are still one of the best performing races and they always will be and so are Chaos and Nurgle. Other races at the top are High Elves Wood elves and Necromantic.

Chaos and Nurgle have also played hundreds more games at that level each week so it is a far bigger sample size than the other races which shows the inability of other races to maintain a high TV for any length of time at all while Chaos and Nurgle can easily sit at a high TV and play games all they want while the other races will typically only stay there for one maybe two games before their team is suffers heavy cas and drops back down below 2000Tv. This is the main reason why they dominate and will likely dominate LRB6. Inducments of course help close the gap but the TV leaders will always have statistically better odds of winning a game than the lower TV team with inducments.

Chaos average cas a game is 4.32 and Nurgle is 5.8, while dwarves just get 3.16, and Orcs is just 2.55 and no one else comes close to their cas average - Underworld are third in the list with 3.54 cas a game again that is just because they have got 2 players with access to the killer combo. Obviously Chaos and nurgle should be winning the cas battle as is their nature and has always been but that is a huge difference especially Nurgle.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
check out the monster thread I just posted.
I think you'll find it interesting.

(As for the results you mention, it will be interesting to see what happens when the meta-gaming starts. I'm as curious as you are )
Cheers
Martin

[garion]

Hi Garion,
didn't say the league had to have an actual end. It can be perpetual.
There just has to be goals along the way, meaning that every game matters - say that games can not be used for "farming light".

Looked at the black box numbers, though I'm not familiar with them. But it looks like there are a handful of teams ahead of chaos when it comes to actually winning anything.

Cheers
Martin

Again that is because that takes into account all TV ranges, Chaos still struggle below 1500TV as they always have and as said above Dark Elves still perform very well at high TV. High Elves and Wood Elves seem to do quite well but their number of games at a high TV are so low because they find it so difficult to reach that TV now and stay their for any period of time. The only races that are staying at a TV of 2000+ for long periods are chaos and Nurgle which is why they are dominating at the moment.

Also I think there are goals. As I said there is the top 10 list to achieve, there is also the monthly championship and there are minors and major tourneys. Blackbox is a very hard place to farm because it is a very bashy league. So very few teams are really doing particularly well in team building terms apart from those with access to the killer combo which again shows its dominance.

[plasmoid]

Like I said, I'm very curious about what will happen when the environment starts to meta-mutate.

As an off-shot of all of this, I do think that the recommended spiralling expenses ought to be steeper, that the Bank rule should replace petty cash and that concessions should give the bonus MVP but not the bonus cash. IMO, right now it is too easy for heavy (AV9) teams to stay afloat at high TVs. As many other teams won't be able to maintain as high a TV, and as a result the heavy teams will always be overdogs. By definition, overdogs ought to have an advantage in any game.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

Like I said, I'm very curious about what will happen when the environment starts to meta-mutate.

As an off-shot of all of this, I do think that the recommended spiralling expenses ought to be steeper, that the Bank rule should replace petty cash and that concessions should give the bonus MVP but not the bonus cash. IMO, right now it is too easy for heavy (AV9) teams to stay afloat at high TVs. As many other teams won't be able to maintain as high a TV, and as a result the heavy teams will always be overdogs. By definition, overdogs ought to have an advantage in any game.

Cheers
Martin

Concessions arent a problem on fumbbl they are very rare. the bank rule is definately something that should have been included and JJ got that one badly wrong. Personally I think spiraling expenses actually starts a little early. But the incriments could got up faster so it evens out.

Meta Mutate - hmmm i get your point but still feel there is no answer the combo. I have heard the arguements for fend wrestle etc.... but frankly they arent good enough at countering the combo and building a player specifically for the LoS in a perpetual league is doomed to failure as they all die quickly anyway so it is a lot of investment both in TV and time for a player that will never last long.

But we will see I look forward to league opening up again. After about 10 seasons I think there should be ample statistical data.

[Maverick]

[quote="garion"]But there is a point.

There is the top 10 list - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=blackbox
I have been around 20th for the last month although dropped down to 30th now on the back of a few really bad results. I would love to be top, though I personally think that is impossible unless you play with chaos or nurlge.
[quote]

Interestingly enough 5 of the top 10 at time of posting havent got a chaos team in their black box teams 3 more have pretty much every team and have lot better W/L/T ratios with other teams.

[Piousman]

The key difference here is how a player feels when they are in a division of say, 10-20 players, with the goal of making play-offs/invitationals/advancing, etc., vs being one of the faceless masses where any one game is just one game.

In the smaller format there is a clear goal in mind season to season. In the mob format is just farming until you hit the sweet spot and start laying out the law.

Obviously people like PO excluded.

- Piousman