Orc team development

[mattgslater]

Well, a couple games in, and boy am I frustrated.

This team is having weird outlier rolls. I've finally got back up to .500 (6-2-6) on the strength of a pair of 1-0 wins that should both have been 2-0 or 3-0. But for the last several games, there's been one category (a different one every time) where the easy/important stuff hasn't worked. Like last game, I lined up big blocks all over the place, but pushed and pushed and pushed... most of the damage I took was on my own blocks, and most of the damage he took was from the ground. The game before that, my TRRs completely abandoned me in the first half. (That's happened a few times lately.) I've also deviated a little from my construction intent, because development hasn't gone the way I've wanted. Good news, that Side Step BOB has been insane since he got Block; he singlehandedly deflated this Nurgle team two games ago, stopping their drive and opening the way on my own. He was also very helpful in winning the last match.

My BOBs are doing okay on SPP; one of the Block guys skilled, and now I have two Guard players. The 30 SPP guy has been sitting there for quite a while. The real problem is the Blitzers, who keep soaking up MNGs. I've had whole seasons without a MNG Blitzer, but this team's first 15 games will have seen 8 of them. As a result, none of my Blitzers have earned any SPP in weeks.

I ended up taking an extra lino and firing my Goblin to account for this. I have 11 players going into the next match: a rookie Troll, a BOB with Block and SS, a BOB with Block, two with Block and Guard, a Lino with Wrestle, a rookie Lino, a Blitzer with MB and one with MB and Guard, a Thrower with KOR, Block, and Accurate, and a rookie Thrower. All the Blitzers and Linos are close to improving, except the two who are missing the game: the MA7/MB guy, and that SS guy who Nuffle seems to really hate (he's AV9, and has taken 3 Cas in the last 10 blocks he's taken, getting SI'ed once, using my Apoth twice and getting SI on both rerolls). He did contribute significantly to the W last game.

Who do I try to skill? Here's what I'm thinking for the next skill:
MB Blitzer: Tackle
MB/G Blitzer: Stand Firm
Rookie Lino: Dirty Player
Wrestle Lino: ???

For the Wrestle Lino, should I build him as a POstopper by giving him Fend, or should I build him as a safety with Frenzy or Tackle? I play against mostly DE and bash teams.

[juck101]

But on man-down defense against bash, that's what frustrates me, and is a big part of my normal emphasis on SF lines, which I just don't have yet.

hi matt. I kinda skim read most of this thread and the above and I'm kinda stuck what to suggest. YOU are the biggest spammer of advice and yet your issue as far as I can see is to do with the picks and things you made. Im catching up on your meditations post but i feel lost with this one.

Im sorry to say that not going men down is the answer vs harder bash. I kinda thought that positional skills - ie sf and ss were your answer to everything. My answer to that is spam lots of guard and try to not take much. Further having lots of guard = you hit harder. Not any of this nonsense with ma+ or too many mb players.

I have to say that just about every dude I would advise is too get guard next skill. You need to hit the ag/hybird teams and 1mb is fine really to do that. I would be torn wanting a tackle with the above but your team is crying out for guard. I dont understand your terms for fixed positions and I think its better to not ALWAYS play like that. I do know you appear a good player but I cant see 4 wingers vs a claw team as a good idea. Protect your best players in fact by putting them behind the scrimmage pit.

Im fundamentally offering MY solution to your problem. My solution is lots of guard on bobs, blitzers the troll whatever really. but that is something you often seam to think is better with SF, so just stick to your advice if that is what you prefer. You have demonstrated considerable skill with positional skills but Im sorry to say the brutish option is often one I prefer.

If you were answering this post I would predict you would say SS and SF on most players, so just do that

[juck101]

next blitzers without guard, score and try to give them guard

[mattgslater]

This team hasn't got a lot of positioning skills yet, just the two Side Step players; Except in a short environment (where it's an early pick), my Orcs don't take much Stand Firm until they get to peak, and SIs have kept this team operating short of peak for quite some time. I'm in the "load up on MB and Guard" phase still.

As far as MB over Guard goes on Blitzers, I've found that a) I'm an excellent blocker, and don't need as much Guard as some other coaches to always get 2d, b) because I engineer blocks so well and don't do much else all that well, tons of MB really help generate a big body count, which helps with everything else (so long as every opposing AV roll isn't a 10...), and c) I tend to use my BOBs as "islands" and it's much easier for me to get use out of their Guard than that of the Blitzers, who tend to lay the smack. I still have more Guard + ST than just about anybody I face. If I can get a skill on the Troll, then Guard it is. I'm also thinking of Guard for the SS Blitzer's next skill.

FWIW, I tend to set up a more interior-oriented defense against bash teams, unless I have a lead or am trailing at halftime. The CoP stuff is mostly for dealing with elves. Block/SS BOB is awesome against bash, but only if I can deploy him or if the opponent runs at him; no sense wasting MA4 on the wing against an opponent who won't try to break through a strong wing.

My problem has not been deterring blocks (lately) or not getting good blocks, but just powering through when Nuffle gives me the early raspberry and tells me I have to play man-down. 10 SIs in 21 Casualties over 14 games (13 with Apoth): that's just bad Apoth dice and weird Cas timing. That, and the Cas my Orcs have taken have tended to pile up at the beginning, while my opponents have mostly taken their Cas at the end of the match.

[PorkSol]

Since FUMBBL is down at the moment:

Your team is 1710k TV (if those guys weren't missing next game), but it punches like a much lower TV team.

You have: 130k invested in non bashing skills (sidestep x2, +ma, KoR, accurate, etc)
70k invested in a secondary thrower
60k invested in a fourth reroll

You have:
100k invested in bashing skills like guard, mighty blow, piling on, tackle
120k invested in putting block and wrestle on guys

With a single block leader thrower (12 guys total), 3 rerolls and no sidestep or +ma you'd have pretty much the same punching power, but at ~1490 TV. (Or more punching power for the same TV if you favored one blitzer and got him mighty blow, piling on and tackle.)

Ranked is pretty different from box, but in playing 7 different Orc teams, I've found that the more I focused on my core bashing and grinding skills, the better I did. The more I focused on luxuries like sidestep (so I can pick where I fall down), the worse I did, to the point where my team with three sidestep guys ended up with a ridiculously horrible record, because it punched far below its weight.

My most recent team skipped the troll in favor of an lineman, took a single thrower with leader, declined early doubles and +move, fed touch downs to the BOBs and a single blitzer who picked up mighty blow and piling on early and took most blitzes. As a result, the team punched above it's TV weight and had a really good record considering the coach's skill, or lack thereof.

Unfortunately I don't have an example roster as that team has bloated by now (couldn't resist trying out Blodging BOBs) and my earlier orc teams are both bloated and somewhat randomly skilled up as well.

But I think it was something like
Three rerolls
Thrower - Leader
BOB - Block Guard
BOB - Block Mighty Blow
BOB - +ST
BOB - Block
Blitzer Mighty Blow, Piling on
Blitzer Guard
Blitzer Guard
Blitzer Nothing - later +AG
Lineman Wrestle (Maybe not worth it)
Lineman
Lineman

[mattgslater]

Yeah, I know I've got a bloated team. I think it's leaner than you think it is, but my main problem was that I went for the early doubles and am just now starting to see some ROI.

The #2 Thrower is great if he skills fast, but replacing the first one was a mistake (never been down that road; usually T2 goes up real fast, and I have a retriever and a Leader lickety-split, both with Block; AV8+Block > AV9+nothing). I too like 12-man Orc squads, but my horrific injury timing has got me paranoid of having to play down-men. The SS is out-of-turn, but you can't pick when you get your doubles. One of them (the BOB) has really started to pay off now that he has Block and proper support; the other one keeps getting SI'ed somehow (none of it was Claw, btw; just AV9 breaks), so I don't know what to say there, as the sample is corrupted.

The 4th TRR is probably excessive, and should have been fired about two games ago. I was running it when I needed to get a few TDs on my BOBs, and when my FF sucked because my FUMBBL-learning games brought my record way down, but now the BOBs all have Block, my FF isn't awful, and I'm about as un-FUMBBLy as I'll ever be (not saying much; I still misclick like a drunkard, because I'm a klutz and have a funny mouse-thingy), so I can probably cut it.

Guard may be a great skill, but what's it for?
1) Making the opponent game to get 2d hits. This is valuable to my team at this time.
2) Gaming to get 2d hits. This is of very limited value to my team at this time; I made three 1d hits and a 1/2d hit in that game against Nurgle, but that's the exception (and it was caused by being man-down from a thrown rock and a doubleskull).
I would love to have more, and it always pays for itself, but I'm one or two Guards away from the PoDR, so beyond taking Guard for #5, for the Troll, and maybe for the MB Blitzer, I think I'm happy.

I'd break my skill selection down as follows:
Blocking skills: 180k (3x Guard, 5x Block, Wrestle)
Damage skills: 60k (3x MB)
Positioning skills: 90k (2x SS, +MA)
Retrieval skills: 60k (Acc/KOR, surplus Thrower)

In the short run, I have about 30k too many "positioning" skills, and 20k too few "damage" skills, for my level of development. I also have 20k too many retrieval skills, given that they haven't yielded an extra improvement yet. If that weren't true, I wouldn't have created this thread. But that's because the development rules don't let me choose when to take my good-but-suboptimal skills, and they happened to land right at the beginning.

I've been contemplating firing that TRR anyway, and I think the next game (when my guys come back) will be a good time to do that. That leaves me with -60k TV and 13 players, or -130k and 12, if I cut the Thrower.

There's no way I'm sacking MA7 guy or either SS'er. My experience with SS/Block BOBs is the same here as on tabletop; people freak out when they can't 2d the guy, and he completely wrecks offensive gameplans. He's also good (but not great) on offense; usually, he runs a picket outside the cage, to give me an option for redirect. The SS Blitzer should be doing better than he is, but it's not his fault; Nuffle just hasn't been with him (or has been with him too much, perhaps). MA7 guy hasn't had an MA7 game yet, but my experience says about one game in five the extra MA makes a big, huge difference. I'd rather have that as a #3 skill, but I'll take it as a #2.

So that leaves me with:
BOBs: B/G(SF or MB?), B/G(SF), B/SS(Fend or Guard?), B(G or MB).
Blitzers: MB/G(SF), MB/MA(Tackle), MB(G or PO?), SS(???).
Throwers: B/KOR/Acc(Fend), Rookie (Block or cut... on the fence).
Troll: Rookie(Guard).
Linos: Wrestle(Frenzy), Rookie(DP).

Six improvement questions and/or plans I'm not quite convinced on:
1) The ultimate goal is 9 guys with Block, Guard and SS/SF, with at least 7x MB. Can't ClawPOMB if you can't knockdown, and you can't knockdown if you can't get good blocks! I intend to take a bunch of SF all at once, going from 0 to 3 in a very short span. To that end, I'm contemplating MB as a #3 skill on my 30-SPP Block/Guard BOB if he goes up before the other B/G gets close to 31.
2) To get one Frenzy and one Tackle quickly, I'll give Frenzy to the Wrestle Lino and Tackle to the MA7/MB Blitzer. Is that the proper order, or should it be the other way 'round?
3) SS/Guard or SS/Tackle is a good power combo for a Blitzer, and SS/Guard/Block for a BOB. But what about Fend? I'd like to have some anyway.... Also, what about MB? I want as much as possible, because it's got great spam value. I make a roughly equal number of blocks with BOBs and Blitzers, once the BOBs get Block; this team has more BOB-blocks thrown because the Blitzers have taken more damage, but that's not been my general experience.
4) I lack for POMB, and though I'll soon get up to 5-7x MB, my killy power is the sort that doesn't really focus very well; every opposing player sees the same 2d skilled block with MB, you know? Is PO a #4 skill for the +MA guy, or the #2 skill for the MB-only guy (instead of Guard)?
5) My plan with the Block-only BOB is to get him MB, but he's likely to go up before the Troll. In that case, should I give him Guard?
6) Only the Troll and the Throwers consider doubles at this point. Am I right? Or do I take Jump Up on Blitzers? I guess I really want JU if it lands on my MB-only guy or my SS guy, huh? Otherwise, one SS BOB is plenty, no? What if it lands on Block-only guy, after the Troll Guards up, so I can run a symmetrical defense with (ultimately) six safeties against bash?

[juck101]

If your blitzers are soaking up mng, and your BOBs are islands = then I can what i would change.

If you are not taking to many 2d blocks then ignore the guard suggestion but I fail to see how bringing the team closer and utilizing guard wont help keep your team upright. I also think porksol above is bang on. You got too much agility and not enough bash.

[mattgslater]

Oh, no disagreement on having too much AG. I'd like a little more Guard; I have almost enough, but it's hard to get too much. I'll have at least 7 or 8 at peak build. I went with the agility stuff early, because that's when I got the doubles. I wouldn't have done it if I were confident I could pick the order.

The Blitzers don't take a lot more Blocks than the BOBs. A little more, because the BOBs all have Block and ST4 is harder to hit than ST3. The real problems are that
1) I've got this one Blitzer who's convinced he's a Snotling, and gets taken out every time anybody sneezes at him, and sometimes when he sneezes at the other guy. It's totally random; pow/10+/10+ is only supposed to come up 5 times in 324, but this guy gets it about one time in 10. That will balance out over time.
2) My MVPs have bunched up on BOBs and Throwers to the point of silliness. Not complaining; it's a good thing ... but it's not good for my Blitzers.

[PorkSol]

Yeah, I know I've got a bloated team. I think it's leaner than you think it is, but my main problem was that I went for the early doubles and am just now starting to see some ROI.

Right, it's not exactly bloat as you'd want those skills eventually, but the TV matching format means that things can get a lot harder in the short term when you take certain early doubles / ball handling skills that may be good in the long term. Same for early +MA to an extent.

It's a trap I've fallen into repeatedly.

So that leaves me with:
BOBs: B/G(SF or MB?), B/G(SF), B/SS(Fend or Guard?), B(G or MB).
Blitzers: MB/G(SF), MB/MA(Tackle), MB(G or PO?), SS(???).
Throwers: B/KOR/Acc(Fend), Rookie (Block or cut... on the fence).
Troll: Rookie(Guard).
Linos: Wrestle(Frenzy), Rookie(DP).

Can't comment much on your skill choices as I lack experience with many of those skills/combos and there is a clear playstyle difference; you're able to engineer a lot more blocks for your blitzers, while I tend to have several support blitzers with ~3 blocks per game and a mighty blow piling on guy with 7+. (More newbish admittedly)

4) I lack for POMB, and though I'll soon get up to 5-7x MB, my killy power is the sort that doesn't really focus very well; every opposing player sees the same 2d skilled block with MB, you know? Is PO a #4 skill for the +MA guy, or the #2 skill for the MB-only guy (instead of Guard)?

It's hard to believe you'd regret taking it as soon as possible, as it will speed up your development substantially. No idea if it will make it harder to get games in ranked though.

6) Or do I take Jump Up on Blitzers? I guess I really want JU if it lands on my MB-only guy or my SS guy, huh?

Since I tend to want to blitz with the same guy several times in a row, I liked having jump up on my piling on guy, greatly extended his range. Not sure if it'd be worth it at all if you didn't have piling on. I found the roll for a free block wasn't as significant as I expected, but SS /jump up does sound like a lot of fun, no idea if it'd be worth the TV though.