What's the right amount of Guard?

[Jimmy Fantastic]

To be fair for Nurgle I think 6 may be the correct number. All the NW and the Beast and one Pest.
The 2 Killers and Runner would like it too but have other skills to pick and the rotters are just LOS fodder so don't need the extra TV.

[Doomy]

How much Guard do you guys take on your Undead teams, and when do you slap it on Wights? My current policy with my team is "first skill on Wights and Mummies, plus any doubles". But after two seasons my team still has no Mighty Blow bar the Mummies and zero Tackle. It does have Guard on two ghouls, two wights and a mummy though. I would have taken Tackle or MB on the Wight who got a second skill, but he rolled +AG and I felt compelled to take it.

[Urb]

Same for my mummies, typically gaurd then stand firm. I usually give my wights tackle unless there are no ag teams for me to play. If online then MB is a great option. Everytime I've played undead atleast one of my ghouls have gotten gaurd. Be a first double pick for a zombie for me as well.

[nick_nameless]

With mummies I think it depends. I would put guard on one and stand firm on the other. A model with guard usually becomes target one, while one with stand firm is often the last target of they can get around it. I want that guard mummy in the middle with a stand firm guy on one side and a squishy zombie on the other (until I have a block Zombie, of course).

I have an undead team that got +str on a mummy, and when the other mummy came up for a skill I went Stand Firm, because I figured that he was already the mummy that would get hit first, so why not make him that much more annoying.

[mattgslater]

I think it depends on how you're doing. Guard on a Ghoul is nice, but one's the limit. I got doubles on two Ghouls on my FUMBBL team in the same game, and they got MB and haven't looked back. I like Guard on at least one Wight as fast as possible, and always on Zombie doubles! It's good on Mummies, as it often frees up 2d blocks. It's not the only first skill, but it's the most powerful, so in a league format it's a great choice. Mummies, being non-Loners, also like Break Tackle and Stand Firm; either or both with Guard presents good combo potential.

[Doomy]

Thanks for the answers, chaps.

I have an undead team that got +str on a mummy

Possibly a discussion for another topic, but hopefully the mods will allow Nick to provide a quick answer without the thread getting derailed:

Did you pass up Block for that +ST, and did you regret it?

[Greyhound]

I find that I can delay taking Guard only with Lizardmen who need Block on the Saurus first (as in before Guard) and often other skills like Break Tackle, having rolled double on the Krox I was kind of forced to delay Guard there too.

Worse with doubles raining on the skinks my TV spiralled up early and I am now at 1780 k with no Guard on the big guys, and only one on a blodge skink! It still works but I desperately try to get a Saurus over the edge to get Guard and hoping for my Krox to pick up 9 SPP fast to get his Guard.

It's the only team who can manage well enough with such a late Guard-up (in my experience). The opponents team are either:

• Lower in TV, and the great skinks manage to overrun the rookie teams and the Saurus are skilled enough to hold the new guys.
• Higher in TV and Bashy and Slibli's extra Strength and Guard has provided just what I needed to compensate
• Higher in TV in dashy and in this case the ST overload worked just fine, with yes a few risky 1 die block, but I survived it.

To answer the first question, 4-9 is a good number in broad general sweeping statement

[nick_nameless]

Possibly a discussion for another topic, but hopefully the mods will allow Nick to provide a quick answer without the thread getting derailed:

Did you pass up Block for that +ST, and did you regret it?

I did and I do not. There is a thread on this topic somewhere in the forum. My point there (and I'll just reiterate it here) was that opponents focus on that piece and spend too much effort trying to take it out. It's a magnet for opposing models, and with stand firm, once they engage it they have a tougher time getting away

[Hitonagashi]

I find that I can delay taking Guard only with Lizardmen who need Block on the Saurus first (as in before Guard) and often other skills like Break Tackle, having rolled double on the Krox I was kind of forced to delay Guard there too.

Worse with doubles raining on the skinks my TV spiralled up early and I am now at 1780 k with no Guard on the big guys, and only one on a blodge skink! It still works but I desperately try to get a Saurus over the edge to get Guard and hoping for my Krox to pick up 9 SPP fast to get his Guard.

It's the only team who can manage well enough with such a late Guard-up (in my experience). The opponents team are either:

• Lower in TV, and the great skinks manage to overrun the rookie teams and the Saurus are skilled enough to hold the new guys.
• Higher in TV and Bashy and Slibli's extra Strength and Guard has provided just what I needed to compensate
• Higher in TV in dashy and in this case the ST overload worked just fine, with yes a few risky 1 die block, but I survived it.

To answer the first question, 4-9 is a good number in broad general sweeping statement

I find that against most races, Lizardmen don't *need* much guard at all. The Kroxigor needs it as soon as possible, and you need it to compete against orcs and dwarves.

My problem with guard on them is that against a devoted basher, you haven't got the numbers to compete in a bash war (as soon as 1-2 saurii get KO'ed, you have a spiral effect, so you have to get the first KO's), and against a nimble opponent, they don't usually nicely line up and move into contact with the saurii. A rookie saurus is still ST 4 AV 9, and quite capable of sitting there occupying the attentions of 2-3 ST 3 players for a while. I find to win a bash war, lizzies have to have precision strikers, to put down target opponents and control against quick breaks.

There have been games where I'd wished for more guard (usually against dwarves!), but a rock saurus (guard, block, mb/sf etc) is far less important to me than a killer (block/mb/po), an anti agile (block/tackle/mb) and a mobile sweeper (block/break tackle etc). I usually run with 1 devoted anti-agile, one sweeper, one killer, and then skill the others into rocks whenever I can. The Krox is a good rock when he gets guard/sf.

(I also actually commit the sweeper...my anti-agile is usually in a sweeper position, and my "sweeper" actually usually engages with the rocks, and then when I have to commit the anti-agile to seal a break, I use break tackle to free the sweeper to pull him back so that I've always got someone covering the backfield).

I'm fairly happy with this build, it's worked fine for me so far, though in a TV matched environment.

[mattgslater]

Possibly a discussion for another topic, but hopefully the mods will allow Nick to provide a quick answer without the thread getting derailed:

Did you pass up Block for that +ST, and did you regret it?

I did and I do not. There is a thread on this topic somewhere in the forum. My point there (and I'll just reiterate it here) was that opponents focus on that piece and spend too much effort trying to take it out. It's a magnet for opposing models, and with stand firm, once they engage it they have a tougher time getting away

I've found the opposite with my ST6 Mummy, and I don't regret it either. People are terrified of him. Nobody goes his way, and he's always in the middle of the action, dropping 3d bombs on all and sundry. Seriously, unless he's smacking a big guy, he's almost always rolling 3d! He blasts the heck out of big guys and doesn't care about Wrestle or Block D-linemen, and it's much easier partitioning the field when ST6 guy steps up. In short, it's a lot like having Block, so if he gets another double, he can do it again!

[DoubleSkulls]

Mummies don't have loner. That makes a big difference IMO.

[richardleitch5]

ANY bashing team would really want all bashers to have "Guard" (black orcs for one) but the question is not how many it should be "how soon" as the first skill of all 4 black orcs being "guard" would simply be over the top near the start of the game.

With the dwarf lot how much would get "guard" as the 1st skill, how many would go "mighty slap" and such, we know they have tackle and block at the start and without any real ball handeling abilitys (AG 2) your a little limited to what can help them doing the job but if they all have "guard" without any other skill its...well a little wastfull.

[klauser]

What about Skaven? They are a sort of in-between here, since unlike Elves, they can get Guard on normal rolls on their Storm Vermin (and the Rat Ogre, those who run one). But after that, how much Guard do you want? What about Guard on Gutter Runners? One Guard GR should be great, how about two?

[mattgslater]

What about Skaven? They are a sort of in-between here, since unlike Elves, they can get Guard on normal rolls on their Storm Vermin (and the Rat Ogre, those who run one). But after that, how much Guard do you want? What about Guard on Gutter Runners? One Guard GR should be great, how about two?

I think Skaven can easily overdo it on Guard. You don't really want to get stuck in, so you only really need a couple. Say, one GR, one lino, one Stormvermin. The Rat Ogre has only so many worthwhile skills, and Guard has just got to be somewhere on the progression. Similarly with the killer Stormvermin; he may go for Claw-MB-PO-Tackle, but Guard before or after Stand Firm seems obvious.

[DoubleSkulls]

One Guard GR should be great, how about two?

There are lots of good double skills for Gutter Runners, and there is a benefit in diversity so I'd not have two. They are quite mobile so you can often the the one guard where you need.

Generally Skaven don't need a lot of guard (nor do most agile teams) because they aren't trying to win the big ruck in the middle of the park. For them guard is a precision instrument to get 2 dice blocks in crucial situations (like on the ball carrier).