Winnowing the Orky triple-double

[mattgslater]

Sorry for doubling up on the same topic, but I have it down to two options.

Orcs, 4-1-1, open league, will play up to 6 more games before beginning a round-robin season. Conspicuous lack of elves, dwarfs or bashy chaotics; mostly undeady, normal bash, and lots of Skaven.

2x Thrower: Block; KOR/SA.
4x BOB: Block; Guard; 2x Rookie.
4x Blitzer: MB; MB/Tackle; Frenzy; Sidestep/Double.
1x Troll: Rookie.
2x Lino: Rookie; Wrestle/Double.
3RR, Apo, FF5, 70k bank
TV in mid 1.5 range, which is where I want it for now, tactically speaking.

Initial plan: spam MB, smack smack smack.

Options:
Dodge on the SS Blitzer (Guard to follow), SS on the Wrestle Lino (Tackle next), or
Mighty Blow on both, so next match I can get to 6 MB guys, and I can peak out at 10, or
Dodge and MB, so I can get MB next on the Blitzer. Again, Tackle to follow on the Lino.

I'm open to alternative arguments, but they have to be very, very good ones. I'm really leaning to #1 or #3, meaning the real question is: SS or MB on the lino?

Don't sweat the whole supposed lack of synergy between MB or SS and Wrestle. I've got tons of Block/MB and am a better matchmaker than my opposition, so this guy's always hitting Block players anyway. SS/Wrestle is a nice combo for cage-busting, and the two skills share a lot of combo skills such as Tackle, Fend, and Frenzy.

[mattgslater]

Really? 30 views, one vote? Come now.

[Anglakhel]

Have to go for a Blodge/Side Step/Guard Blitzer.

I love having a Wrestle/Mighty Blow player for taking down vulnerable Block players. Side Step less crucial on this Lineorc.

[MKL]

Really? 30 views, one vote? Come now.

First option for me: S-Step galore. And a blodger, while easily negated, is still useful.

Alternatively: since you choose the StrongArm-Accurate path for the Thrower, take Diving Catch for the Blitzer and go all-out aerial!

[mattgslater]

One thing I see is that MB is more random (even if you double the odds, injuries are not nearly as common as pushes), but more powerful (taking a guy off the pitch is better than having an extra 2/3 of a guy in your formation).

I guess it would be important to consider the skills in context of actions, huh? What's this guy do?

1) He marks Blitzers. This one is hard to call. He takes a lot of blocks and SS would let me run bigger or stronger formations, but he also throws a lot of 2d hits against AV8. Advantage MB, but both are useful here.

2) He cuts off cages. MB is nice if it works early and turns into a numerical edge, but it's unreliable. SS is the single-best skill for annoying cagers. And now I can have two of them. Advantage SS by a mile.

3) He covers Blodgers. I've got a Tackle/MB Blitzer and this guy to take on GRs and the like. I'd rather hit with MB, but marking receivers is important in such a rat-heavy format, and SS is more reliable than MB on a play-by-play basis (1/3 chance to push, plus 1/3 or 5/9 chance to fall, vs. 11-17% to break plus 5-11% to get value on injury). Advantage SS, but both are useful here.

4) Speaking of which, he adds more spam to the cheesy, crunchy, bloody spamburger I'm planning on serving up at the tourney late this year (sorry, those who wanted to see my CDs develop, but the silver lining is that they will no longer cap out at eight games, though they won't see much action for awhile). That's a wash in my book; my plan is to spam MB and SS/SF both, and to use each to magnify the other. In fact, I want to name the offense that goes along with Orklahoma; how about the "Orko Chamber" or, to complement Orklahoma (same skillset), the "Sooner... or Later" offense? It's like a cross between the Big Green Wall (it's still nasty, but is no longer the best at what it does) and a "pure" elf-style CoP strategy, to minimize the BGW's newly-made cracks. Takes doubles, but I got 'em.

5) He gives me numerical advantage. SS is a pretty consistent 1/3 to 2/3 of a player over my opponent, all the time; MB is a small-but-real chance of a whole player, either for a turn, for the drive, or for the match, on every block he makes. I intend for him to make about 5 blocks a match, mostly on juicy targets. I think this one is hard to compare, but in my mind slightly favors SS.

6) He works for another improvement. MB is king, but SS is a good survival skill, because it deters blocks. It also may leave him in good scoring position. Improving him is not a high priority, which favors MB. Advantage MB, both are good.

7) He goes to the LOS if I'm facing a team with a lot of ST/Block, at least until I get more Block on the BOBs, or if my BOBs are getting hurt. Advantage SS, but this isn't important. Again, I'll see ClawMB (next match, no less), but it should all be ST3; besides, he's about as valuable (in cost and on pitch) as a BOB with a skill, and my BOBs aren't improving so well this time around.

He used to foul a lot. Not so much anymore....

On that analysis, I think SS is my skill selection. 1-3 are all important, and the weight there favors SS. The rest of it kind of evens out anyway, or slightly favors MB. I can clearly envision lots of tasty scenarios for both skills; MB is more potent, while SS is more reliable. Given that I'm at the top of the heap already, reliability feels more like a winner. Still, I have some time. My next opponent is stuck at halftime, because he's a flake. I might work out a match in the meantime with that scary-but-bloated Skaven team... an argument in favor of MB.

[mattgslater]

3:1 in favor of MB here, but all my leaguemates say I should take SS. Hmm... this is a real conundrum. Good thing the game is postponed. I may end up flipping a coin.

[JaM]

Dunno, wrestle and MB dont really fit. You need block as a third skill to use that MB. While with ss, he's good to go.
Leave the blocking to the BOBs and the blitzing to the blitzers, the linos are there for supportskills (kick and such). SS-wrestle fit that role perfectly. Maybe add a gobbo as a dirty player/fouler later.

I voted for the first option btw. Cult of position all the way !

[mattgslater]

Dunno, wrestle and MB dont really fit. You need block as a third skill to use that MB.

The counter-argument is that most ball carriers have Block, so for him MB/Block is of limited combo value.

Added question: should I build my rookie lino as a line-alternate, or as a fouler, or should I cut him now? I'm not cutting the other Thrower: Throwers take too much damage and are too critical when/if I need a comeback effort. It would be one thing if one hadn't developed, but they're both trucking along nicely, in different roles.

[mattgslater]

Okay, 3 people have voted "none of the above" but the only alternative suggestion was in jest. Really am open to other ideas, don't have to commit until the game ahead of me opens up. Strongly leaning to Dodge for the Blitzer, but if somebody with results to back it up thinks I should take Jump Up to eventually make a POMBer out of him, I'm really open to the idea. Similarly for the Lino, I'd get use of Guard, even if I'm gravitating toward heaping on more theme skills (SS/MB).

[JaM]

Dont cut the rokie. See how he develops (doubles/stats ?) or how things work out in a few games.

I'd probably make sure that he will get the normal skills to be usefull on the LOS.

I'd definatly save the throwers. Having a reliable picking up system for the ball and per haps short delivery system is very usefull for the orcs, espescially against deep kicks.

[mattgslater]

So, 13 men? Yeah. Given the likely opposition mix, I may end up subject to runaway TV. ATM, here's how I see them forming up, with intended improvements in parentheses.

Frowaz:
#1 Burnin' Ko-Zahr (9 SPP/90k): Block (Fend, Leader; Dodge on doubles)
#2 Rotto Graham (17/120k): Kickoff Return, Strong Arm (Accurate, Block; Dodge on doubles)
Blokkaz: (Weez izzunt racist)
#3 Lose Grossly (10/100k): Block (Mighty Blow, Stand Firm; Side Step on doubles)
#4 Wraung Shodgers (0/80k): (Block, Guard or SF*; Side Step on doubles)
#5 Yo Mommaz (6/100k): Guard (Block, Grab; Side Step on doubles)
#6 Orc-Chop Gobsmack (0/80k): (Block, Guard or SF*; Side Step on doubles)
*Guard if they improve quickly once they start going up, SF if it takes too long to get to 16.
Blitzaz:
#7 Kill and Win Slowly, Jr (12/100k): Mighty Blow (Guard, Stand Firm; Side Step or Dodge on doubles)
#8 Krosh Ribbs (20/120k): Mighty Blow, Tackle (Stand Firm, Piling On; Side Step or Dodge on doubles)
#9 Ozzie Gruesome (10/100k): Frenzy (Mighty Blow, Stand Firm; Side Step on doubles)
#10 Brim Jown (16/140k): Side Step, Dodge (Mighty Blow, Tackle or Fend; Diving Tackle on doubles)
Lineboyz:
#13 Abram Keel-'Em (0/50k): (Block, Fend; Mighty Blow on doubles)
#15 Rank Muddyfield (16/100k): Wrestle, Side Step ((Tackle or Fend), (Fend or Tackle, or maybe Pro or Strip Ball after Tackle); Mighty Blow or Jump Up on doubles)
Troll:
#16 Joe DeLaminator (0/110k): (Guard, Stand Firm; Block on doubles)

[DoubleSkulls]

I already posted my view in the original thread...

[mattgslater]

I already posted my view in the original thread...

Gotcha. You agree with Dodge for the Blitzer, and you say Dodge, JU, DT or SS for the Lino.

[Bathoz]

Dodge for the blitzer and lino. It'll give you more mobility. And the orc team is one of the bashy teams that can actually take advantage of that. Plus, of course, a wrestle dodge line-orc is now the number one candidate to man mark the meanest, scariest player on the opposition side.

[mattgslater]

Plus, of course, a wrestle dodge line-orc is now the number one candidate to man mark the meanest, scariest player on the opposition side.

I hear that. There are basically three reasons I'm not rushing out and buying Dodge, but it's a great skill and would fit well on the piece.

1) Right now, those are mostly Frenzy guys, like a Rat Ogre, an MB/Block Were (at halftime on 29 SPP, so he may have Tackle or Dodge when I face him later this week), and a Frenzy/MB Orc Blitzer who will probably have PO the next time I see him. Eventually the mix may change a touch: we're in preseason, so only the rookies and the die-hards are playing much. But for now, there just isn't a lot of heavy, and it's mostly Frenzy.

2) On the same token, nobody can go head-to-head with me, so I don't really need that kind of marker. There's another pair of Orc coaches, but they're rookies and I own them both. There's no Chaos or Nurgle, though eventually there will be a pretty frightful Undead team, with two ST6/Block Mummies. If you don't have ST and Claws, grinding on a SS/MB-heavy Orc team run by a coach who's a better blocker than you is cruising for a mollywhopping. So I don't think I really need a dedicated scary-marker. Now, the sheer on-your-feet power of Dodge, that I could use. The added mobility would be nice, too. But saving my bacon from those scary bad guys? Not so much. Come and get it!

3) There's quite a lot of Dodge going around in the wake of a streak of doubles rolls, meaning some teams will soon ramp up on Tackle. The same is true of SS and Grab, but that matters less, because grab works against non-SS'ers too. Also, most teams will peak out at 0-2 Grab and 2-4 Tackle. In particular, there's this one rookie coach who's got a Skaven team with 4GR, a Stormvermin with Dodge and +ST, and a Blodge Thrower. He's 3-1-3 in his first preseason, in part because he's been reading up, speccing FUMBBL, and experimenting on Cyanide. (I'm starting to think that's how to do it: get rookie coaches ready by walking them through a few TT games, speccing FUMBBL games as a group, and encouraging the rookie apply the principles learned against that idiotic AI stalking-horse, so they can see how it works before trying it on real coaches who will pick apart all their little mistakes.)

I can totally see uses for this player with Dodge. Especially in the regular season, it would be great to have an answer for both of those Mummies at the same time: one gets Troll and BOBs (I'll have lots of Guard by then), the other gets Dauntless Wrodger. In the short run, he's a space-eater and a man-coverage player. SS is better for both roles, but Dodge works okay, and will make it easier to improve him as we approach the starting gate. Not easier than MB....

Too many options, man. The rich man's dilemma. But now I'm down to 1 out of 3 left to pick. SA Thrower, Dodge Blitzer, and this dang Lino. SS, MB, Dodge... I think I've decided against Diving Tackle, Guard, Stand Firm, or Jump Up, but among the others it's a hard call.