is a 'pro' dark elf team viable?

[tool]

I'm asking the following question because in bloodbowl terms I am still quite the newbie. Also I have never had a fully skilled up team so i've never played around with this skill.

I would like to build a dark elf team and was considering leaning more toward a vanillia team build with less specialists. Because their AGI4 makes them servicable in just about any aspect of the game I was thinking that perhaps I should start with 4 RR's and just about all lineman with the idea of 'pro' being the second skill on all of the linemen. The idea being to stockpile mass amounts of general-use rerolls to accomplish whatever random task I need a player to accomplish.

on cyanides game which comes first? the pro check or the opportunity to spend a RR?

With this approach I would stay clear of skills that give free rerolls (mostly, dodge is still tempting from the blocking perspective).

I'm not certain if I'd prefer block or wrestle for their first skill. Both have their merits. I'm leaning toward wrestle on most and block for ball carriers/passers.

I may or may not filter in blitzer's as I can afford it, firing linemen who did not accrue any SPP's. I don't know what the TV difference between a lineman with a skill and a blitzer is. Also the above wrestle/block thing.

could mass amounts of PRO work? Would I *need* to take defensive orientated 3rd skills?

Thanks to all.

[mattgslater]

Pro's not a terrible skill for elves, but it's not the best or second or third or fourth for any given player. I think it's a good late selection on Dauntless types. Pro and a bunch of TRRs is a poor combination. It's best when you've got it on a lone AG4 player on an AG3 team, like after getting an 11 on the first skill (not a CP elf, but that's a special case because of his crazy skill access). Or on an AG4 piece after Block or Wrestle and Dauntless or Tackle. You could take it as a #3 on Blitzers, after Dodge and SS, and you might find it worthwhile. Certainly after that guy gets to 51 SPP, he can start building for multiple combos, like Leap, Frenzy, or Tackle.

I think a vanilla Dark Elf strategy is very viable. 4 Blitzers, 7 Linemen, 2 RRs, 10k bank or even 3 RRs with only 2 Blitzers and 20k in the bank. Hire another Lineman or a positional or whatever, and you're good to go; in the second build, you'll want to get a Blitzer, then replace a dead lino with a Blitzer. Final roster is a very efficient 1160k gold plus FF and improvements. Not for me, thanks; I'd rather have a pair of Witches at peak value, and probably even a 13th player. But you don't need Witches to have a good team. Dodge, Block, SS, Fend across the board, and you have Amazons on steroids.

[purdindas]

Firstly I'd reccommend you take blitzers and possibly witch elves as early as possible. They with the linemen are the staple of any dark elf team. these 2 positionals give you really easy access to blodgers early on which will give you a massive advantage early on in leagues etc. You can live without runners or stabby assassins IMO but they can be nice also if they survive long enough.

Getting alot of rerolls in a beginning dark elf team isnt easy. I'd start with 2 and get 3 blitzers and a witch. This is a strong starting line-up. 4 rerolls is nice but you have no skill rerolls or block! You seem to be aware of the risk but, this concerns me.

Re Pro on the cyanide game. You get the chance to use pro before a team reroll IIRC. Not been on in a while but, remember its only a 50/50 wether you get to use the skill and if you do you still have a chance of failing anyway. Pro is a skill I would rarely take on any play except vampires or perhaps big guys. The way I see it is, it's not as usefull as dodge or block/wrestle. You could try it out but, I think you're onto a loser sorry.

A blitzer cost 100,000 and a lineman with 1 normal skill costs 90,000. The difference between MA 6 and MA 7 is huge though. I think the extra 10k is well worth it.

You mention defensive related 3rd skill. Am I correct in assuming that your 1st 2 skills are pro followed by block/wrestle? You'll be lucky to get a significant number of linemen to thier 3rd skill IMO so you should take what's best up front.

I'd take a mix of Dodge wrestle and block as my lineman skill preferably in that order. ie 1st skilled lino gets dodge next is wrestle and 3rd is block. Dodge is normally most important as its a free skill reroll and he then becomes your mobile assist player.

Hope some of this helps you out.

[Smeborg]

tool - the team is viable, but would probably under-perform compared to a more standard elven team.

If you take lots of Pro, you do not need lots of Re-rolls (you should take one or the other IMO). And why not take Pro as first skill, if you want cheap multi-purpose players?

Compare the rookie DE Blitzer (of which you get 4) with your proposed 2-skill Lineman:

7338 Block
6338 Block or Wrestle, Pro

The Blitzer costs 100,000. The 2-skill Lineman is worth 110,000 in TV and has to be skilled up first. Which do you think is better value?

I have seen an effective DE team with 4 Blitzers and the rest Linos. All AV8, 4xBlock, and relatively cheap.

If you want to go for a cheap elven Lino team, I suggest (Pro-) Elves may be better (because cheaper at 60,000 a pop).

All the best and good luck with your team.

[mattgslater]

I think Dodge is a great universal skill at 6 SPP.Get it on everyone, and you'll never be outpositioned.

[tool]

maybe i'll try it out for fun and let y'all know how it works out. just have to find the time.

[Ullis]

Pro sucks because of the turnover rule.

Let's look at a typical turn whe. You do all the safe stuff (no rolls at all) first. Then you start the rolling, say, opening a hole for your offence or trying to stop the opposing cage. You have 5 of your players (all have Block/Wrestle and Pro) in contact with the opponent. First you do a 2d block. You roll double skulls. Dang. If you use pro, you have a 50% chance of your turn ending right there and your player getting knocked down. If you use a team reroll, you have a 1 in 36 chance of turnover (new double skulls). Or you have to dodge out for an assist or better position. You roll 1. Again, using pro gives you more than 50% chance of turnover, whereas a team reroll or, better, the Dodge skill, gives you 1 in 6 chances of turn over. That's critical stuff. You should always use a team reroll instead of Pro since your turn will end. You only rely on the Pro roll when you don't have any team rerolls to use.

And looking at elves, especially linemen, once you've given them Block/Wrestle and Dodge, they have skills for most of the stuff they ever need to do. Team rerolls can be used for GFI's and ball handling.

At the very least, once you have enough Pro (5 or 6 perhaps) on the team, I'd cut the team rerolls down to 1 for TV management purposes.

[tool]

I enjoy the game, but its too bad that the concession is that you're pigeon-holed into taking such a small sample of skills as your first couple before you're actually 'permitted' to delve into variety (which equates to more interesting for me).

[mattgslater]

I enjoy the game, but its too bad that the concession is that you're pigeon-holed into taking such a small sample of skills as your first couple before you're actually 'permitted' to delve into variety (which equates to more interesting for me).

I used to hate this too, but I learned to stop worrying about it. Even focusing on bang-for-buck leads to endless permutations, because every team improves at different rates, gets different doubles and stats, and does (or doesn't do) different things with them. Besides, usually there is either just one necessary skill, or some kind of obvious set of choices in development tracks.

For example, most elf linemen will look pretty similar at 31 SPP, but there are a lot of ways to get there. Open by spamming Dodge or Wrestle or Block? Switch it up? Throw in some Side Step out-of-order just to get multiples on the pitch? Get a bunch of doubles and take a bunch of Guard?

[tool]

I don't *hate* it. It eliminates choice (for competitive types) and one facet of skill (that being 'build' skill. Or at least stalling this skill for later TV's), but there's still the actual gameplay aspect of it.

It would be nice if instead of your first choice being "what blockig skill do I take" it was "do I go blocking, offensive, or defensive?"

[Ullis]

This is advice on whether your plan for a Pro-heavy team would work or not. My assumption is that it would not work due to the inherent 50+% chance of turnover on the stuff that dark elves would most likely use the skill on (dodging, GFI'ng, ball handling). A Pro-heavy dwarf or Norse team would most likely work better where the Pro was used to reroll blocks. But again, in terms of pure efficiency, Guard and MB spam would most likely work better there.

At the very least if I was making that kind of a team, I'd keep team rerolls to 1 max or even replace them with some FF and 1 assistant coach and cheerleader and see how that works. One aspect of the team would be to minimise TV. Maybe even skip the apothecary.

11 norse linemen 550k
2 ulfwerener (for ST4 Frenzy goodness) 220k
1 reroll 60k
13 skills 260k
FF and stuff 100k
Total TV 1190

[Smurf]

I think there is enough coaches out there to make it all different.

I player WE vs WE and the other coach took Fend for his line, I took Wrestle.

Interesting game (I would have won if I did not roll 4 1s in a row for a catcher to get the ball).