Chaos Dwarf Tactics

[Coach Grievous]

I'm really interested to hear the wisdom of experienced (or inexperienced, but insightful) Chaos Dwarf coaches. I've never played them myself, but I'm considering it. I don't much like Dwarves as a team, but I don't seem to mind their chaotic cousins.

The strong points which I like:
- The powerful, already skilled starting Blocker
- I think in the current LRB6 environment Claw access is pretty powerful in the long run

The biggest problems which I see include:
- Ball handling
- Ability to handle incoming casualties

I'm not too stumped for ideas on how to develop these guys since there's some pretty obvious and powerful choices.

3 Blockers go the Killer route, with Mighty Blow/Claw. The remaining 3 Blockers are on Guard duty. Sprinkle Stand Firm and Side Step between the two types as appropriate to make them more sticky.

There's 2 Hobgoblins on the field on each drive and since the ball handling is out-sourced to them one of them needs to go down some sort of "Sure Hands, Block, Fend/Kick Off Return"-route (if it ever survives that far). As for the rest... on defense, they'll provide the Kick skill. On offense, they bring a Dirty Player. Somewhere in there it would be very nice to have Wrestle as well, but there's a lot of skills these guys need to bring.

There's a few ways to go with the Minotaur, but a fairly standard Block, Guard, Stand Firm seems reasonable.

The Bull Centaurs get Block, Break Tackle as basic options and can diversify from there. AG+1 would be a pleasure and I'm thinking it might be worth kicking and re-hiring for...

But more than team development, I'm interested in tactics.

How to run the ball? Use the Hobgoblins, but are those insanely risky hand-offs to the Bull Centaurs worth it? As I understand, handing off like that is pretty popular among Chaos Dwarf coaches, but to me it seems like a way to easy way to flat out lose the game.

Also, one thing I worry with this team is it's ability to bounce back from casualties (within the game, not so concerned about replacing them). You lose one Blockers and it will undoubtedly be immediately felt on the field. So, how does a successful Chaos Dwarf coach handle losing Blockers (or Bull Centaurs) from the field?

What are your fast touchdown or emergency scoring options with the team if the opposition isn't whittling down? What do the Chaos Dwarves have in their toolbox in that situation? Pigskin allergic Bull Centaurs?

So yeah, that's a lot of questions or areas to explore. I'd love to hear your ideas, folks.

[Smeborg]

Hi Grievous: these are all good questions. I find this team to be one of the highest performing and enjoyable to play. It has a marked character, being very tough (except for the Hobgobs), rich in blocking skills, low in AG (only Khemri have lower overall AG), and starting without ball moving skills.

I like to use one or both Bull Centaurs as primary ball-carriers on offense, using a Hobgoblin only if the first pick-up attempt fails. Break Tackle is the definitive skill for BCs, and I like to give it to them first. A ball-carrying BC is very difficult to stop - he can score from 9 squares out. It helps to have a re-roll in hand if you are going to do any dodging with him. Dodge is great on a doubles. Using a BC as the Runner helps with development (it is difficult to skill them up otherwise). With ST4 and B-Tackle, the BCs like to blitz on defense.

The team can be played successfully with or without a Minotard. I have tried both, and now incline somewhat to having the Mino. Frenzy on a rookie player is good for keeping defenses honest, and ST5 helps boost an otherwise low ST team, especially before you have plentiful Guard on the CDs. J-Naut/S-Firm is my current system.

The Hobgoblins will be targetted by opponents because of their low AV. I like to start them with Block/Fend, to keep them standing and out of harms way. They look quiet, but have a wide range of duties: assists, receiving, secondary ball carrying, screening and escorting, surprise blitzing, etc. They will often be underestimated by opponents. They make good foulers. I like to have one HG with (say) Block, S-Hands, K-Ret. As well as coming into play when a BC fails his first pick-up (1 in 4 chance) such a player comes into his own in pouring rain, or when you need to score in 2 turns. Dodge is an obvious doubles choice on the HGs.

The most popular way to develop the Chaos Dwarfs is to give them Guard first. However, I feel that giving them M-Blow first is equally viable in anything other than a short league (this way they will skill up faster and get to their second skill quite soon). Claw is the prime doubles choice for them (for combining with M-Blow, P-on).

Some other coaches may not agree with my "system", but I have found it to work well in practice.

All the best, and I hope you enjoy this sporting team.

p.s. The side is very tough, you don't need to worry unduly about taking casualties. Usually it will be your opponent doing that. If you find yourself down on numbers, running the ball in quickly with a BC (9 squares per turn) is usually a good option.

[The Dazzler II]

Sure_Hands on a HobGob as a first skill for me

Alternate Block/BT & BT/Block for both Bulls

As much Guard on the Blockers as you can decently take

Drive the cage one way; if your opponent doesn't seali it off. If he does, at the right point, break t'other way

I don't start with the Mino but i am partial to him

CDs are one of my favorite teams. I even bought back my painted team; i sold it after i bought Dwarfs and always regretted it. Luckily it was to a friend on the basis i had dibs

[Hosko]

After having just finished a 7 game season with the little blighters I really like Smeborg's break down.

I've gone with MB as the dwarves first skill, mainly as they take so long to skill up (in fact only one blocker has skills) and I know I have missed out on a lot of SPP's by rolling a 9 on the cas roll.

I gave both Centaurs block as I found that I really need to keep them on their feet - where to from there, well one has strength 5 and the other MB. MB again to help them get those coveted SPP's. Break tackle may be next on the cards or something to help them catch/pick up the ball (sure hands or catch).

The Hobgob's (I have four) include 3 with block and 1 with dodge. I chose these skills to help keep them alive but acknowledge that I miss not having kick.

I think that the mino is a great addition to the team, not necessarily from what he actively does but passively he contributes a great deal - tying up players in tackle zones, the threat of blitzing, the threat of crowd surfing and some solid strength for where ever it is needed.

They've always been fun on the table and an interesting team to learn to play.

Cheers,
Hosko

[Coach Grievous]

Very nice replies, thanks.

The thing I still have the most difficulty is accepting my odds (even with a reroll) of picking up with the Bull Centaur. Sure, he makes one hell of a carrier once that ball is in hand, but those pudgy arms can barely scrape the floor! It puts a serious, exploitable weakness into the Chaos Dwarf game plan. How do you cover this crucial moment? You'll have to shut down the approaches in the case of a failed attempt, but the team doesn't seem that well suited for it mobility-wise. Losing an offensive drive by allowing the opponent to convert is bad. Do you cage up behind your line of scrimmage? Do you keep dwarves back there as well or are you looking to just shut down the entire LoS?

[Hitonagashi]

Very nice replies, thanks.

The thing I still have the most difficulty is accepting my odds (even with a reroll) of picking up with the Bull Centaur. Sure, he makes one hell of a carrier once that ball is in hand, but those pudgy arms can barely scrape the floor! It puts a serious, exploitable weakness into the Chaos Dwarf game plan. How do you cover this crucial moment? You'll have to shut down the approaches in the case of a failed attempt, but the team doesn't seem that well suited for it mobility-wise. Losing an offensive drive by allowing the opponent to convert is bad. Do you cage up behind your line of scrimmage? Do you keep dwarves back there as well or are you looking to just shut down the entire LoS?

It isn't too bad odds! 4+ with a RR is 75% chance of succeeding.

If it's a short kick, then you probably want to pick it up with a hobgoblin and handoff to a BC towards the back. Remember, once you get there, he's got speed and power, so if they rush the backfield, you can punch a hole once you have the ball, and he's suddenly the other side of their defensive line.

I'm not a CD player (I try and score with lizardmen saurii, which is similar but on a 5+ ), but that's how I'd do it .

Obviously, pick your moments. If its against ag 5 elves and the kick is short, and your BC isn't too far back, don't try anything fancy...but if it's against a team without the speed to capitalize on it, you've probably got one free try before you have to resort to a hob.

[mattgslater]

The important thing is always keeping your formation strong between the LOS and the ball. It's pretty easy with a team this tough: either the ball is far enough back that you don't give up good pressure, or it's far enough up that you don't have too much discrepancy between protection and cages. You can do your pickups and carries with Hobs, and OSPT until you can run it in with either the carrier or a Bull (or, even better, with a Dwarf). You can handoff to a Bull already in the cage if the oppo hasn't got through your formation yet.

Don't get around thinking that the Bull is fast. Sure Feet has a way of snaking on you at the worst possible moment. He's fast for his size, which is nice, but MA6+SF+Sprint is not the equal to MA9, MA8, or really even MA7. He's at least 10k overpriced, but it's okay because he's a good player, Hobs are cheap, and Dwarfs are golden value.

It's hard to score with Dwarfs, but if you manage to get man-up against a ST3 side, you can usually drive your cage downfield pretty effectively. Dwarfs don't move as fast as Bulls, but on a long stall at the endzone it doesn't matter much. Don't sweat scoring with Bulls too much: skills on Hobs are always welcome.

Handoff at end of turn, of course. Always be ready for a bobble. I recommend putting up a screen at least two squares inside of the intended recipient, as part of a full cage. This is much easier when you do it either a) at the LOS, or b) on the sideline. You're not good at reversing, so sideline routes are undesirable, meaning you should only handoff at the end of T1-2, or after you've taken control.

Minos: Stand Firm, (Break Tackle or Juggernaut). You need Stand Firm to keep him alive, because otherwise (unless you get lucky for Block), he will be half-die-blocked into obscurity more often than not. This gives him immediate value and makes him much easier to protect. Once he gets to 16 SPP, Break Tackle makes him an unreliable superstar. Juggernaut is better, IMO, because so much of your game is already focused around getting him free. Guard is an option too, on power and SF combo value, even if it's not great for his role.

Bulls: Block and Break Tackle first. After that, it's a judgment call. If you don't like Minos, then give one of them Frenzy, and you won't notice the Mino missing (note: you need a Dwarf or Hob with Dauntless in that case). Bulls like stats, but it's hard to pass up on Block or Break Tackle. I ignore doubles on the first roll, and take Dodge after that. Second double is Side Step, even if I don't have Break Tackle. Normal skill options after #2 are Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, and Pro (Pro is surprisingly good on a BC, because he's often dodging at 2+, taking handoffs at end of turn, and blocking 2d into skilled opponents). Don't take toolbox skills on Bulls!

Dwarfs: Guard first on the first three, after that, MB. Doubles becomes Claw and replaces a MB player (meaning the order might go Guard, Claw, Guard, Guard, MB, MB). Always your priorities are: Guard, kill (MB/Claw), SF, toolbox, with the aim to have three blockers (Guard/(SFvMB)), a slayer (ClawPOMB), a giant-killer/fireplug (MB/SF/(CMB v Guard v Dauntless)), and whatever mileage you can get out of the last Dwarf. A lot depends on Cas and MVP distribution, so Dwarf development is random.

Hobs: For me, Hobs have three tracks: carrier, specialist, and fodder.
Carrier (#3): Sure Hands, KOR, Block, Fend; Dodge on early doubles, Accurate on late doubles. Replace with +AG specialist if necessary and available.
Fodder (#1,2,4,5): (DP v Wrestle), (Wrestle v (DP v Fend)), and at 31 becomes specialist. I like to go Wrestle-DP-SH-Wrestle-Wrestle, but whatever tickles you.
Specialist: whoever rolls something cool, or whatever Fodder makes it to 31. No more than two specialists!
Going off-track:
Doubles on #1 skill becomes Guard or MB (as you would for a Dwarf). Follow with MB with Wrestle, then some kind of blocking skill like Tackle, Frenzy, or Dauntless. Follow Guard with Block and Fend.
Doubles on #2 skill becomes: SH-Dodge, DP-SG, or Wrestle-(MBvDodge). It doesn't change any tracks, except that the DP/SG player is probably permanently off line duty and may be considered a specialist.
10 becomes +MA, except on a Dirty Player without Wrestle.
11 becomes +AG, and either becomes carrier or specialist. Specialist +AG improves with Block, Fend.
12 becomes +ST, and becomes specialist with Wrestle and Frenzy unless it's the Carrier, who takes it but continues on track thereafter.

[Smeborg]

Very nice replies, thanks.

The thing I still have the most difficulty is accepting my odds (even with a reroll) of picking up with the Bull Centaur. Sure, he makes one hell of a carrier once that ball is in hand, but those pudgy arms can barely scrape the floor! It puts a serious, exploitable weakness into the Chaos Dwarf game plan. How do you cover this crucial moment? You'll have to shut down the approaches in the case of a failed attempt, but the team doesn't seem that well suited for it mobility-wise. Losing an offensive drive by allowing the opponent to convert is bad. Do you cage up behind your line of scrimmage? Do you keep dwarves back there as well or are you looking to just shut down the entire LoS?

Another good question. Essentially you plan to fail the first pick-up (which will happen slightly more often than 1 in 4 times). Usually there are 4 things to do, in order:

(a) Move a Hobgoblin (the one with S-Hands, if available) into a position protecting the ball (e.g. one square in front of it).

(b) Execute the "normal" blocks on the line of scrimmage, and (more often than not) the blitz.

(c) Form a screen (ideally and commonly a double screen) preventing the opponent from easily getting to the ball, if spilled.

(d) Attempt pick-up with Bull Centaur.

If the pick-up fails, you have 2 main options for the following turn: (i) try again with the BC, if safe, or (ii) use the HG with S-Hands (if you are in big trouble, you can use his S-Hands + team Re-roll to hand-off or even pass the ball).

If the ball is kicked short enough to put the ball at risk against an agile or leaping team (or sometimes in open play), you may be able to form a cage around the ball before picking it up with the BC, to limit potential damage from a spilled ball.

3 in 4 is not bad odds. If you can clearly get 2 attempts, this rises to 15/16. It can help to give at least one BC S-Hands as a middle skill (saves re-rolls and prevents stripping). ST4/B-Tackle/Block/Dodge/S-Hands is a strong Runner build, and only requires 1 double (you are likely to get a double on at least one BC).

Overall, the tactics are not dissimilar to other slow and clumsy teams, with the positive differences being that the CD's blocking game is very good, and a ball carrying BC is faster and heavier than his counterparts.

A more negative way of looking at the issue is: how will the BCs skill up unless you allow them to run the ball? They are great players, but they start with a big skill deficit.

Hope that helps.

[Hitonagashi]

Essentially you plan to fail the first pick-up

<snark> Doesn't every team? </snark>

Good advice though

[Smeborg]

Essentially you plan to fail the first pick-up

Doesn't every team?

I think AG2 and AG3 teams need to "plan to fail" the pick-up. AG4 teams with S-Hands or a Team Re-roll in hand may prefer to take a more laid back approach, I suggest.

[Smurf]

What about six blockers on the kill duty.

The team does have to bull centaurs and a big guy.

Mighty Blow/ Claw* / Guard / Standfirm

* Just needs a double.

Another double would be Jump Up, this would be funny as the little buggers bounce up and run about.

[Coach Grievous]

What about six blockers on the kill duty.

The team does have to bull centaurs and a big guy.

Mighty Blow/ Claw* / Guard / Standfirm

* Just needs a double.

Another double would be Jump Up, this would be funny as the little buggers bounce up and run about.

Though it looks very tempting to start with, considering MiB doubles your career CAS in such a case, I think the result might be a crucial lack of Guard in the department of slightly advanced teams for early to mid league play. Other bash teams will be taking a smattering of Guard early on and you'd be at a clear disadvantage. That's why a 3MB/3G split seems better, but a 4MB/2G wouldn't be totally out of the question (since I don't really think the issue is necessarily having more Guard to shut down the opposition, but rather enough Guard to enable certain plays).

That said, it might work out though, if you just manage to get second skills on the Blockers quickly (with say a starting winning streak or under a pick-your-own-MVP house rule).

However, to make team development more bashy, I could see an alternative development plan of foregoing anything but Claw on doubles. Even for the Blockers on the Guard development line, instead of giving them Side Step or anything, just hand them Claw when/if they get doubles. Then, if they have gotten that, give them Mighty Blow as the next skill up. That seems potentially pretty fierce and even just having Claw works well enough against AV heavy Bash sides.

[Smurf]

The MVP system is skewed any way.

With 3/8 chance getting a Dwarf with MVP. It can be improved by:

6 blockers
2 BC
1 Mino
3 HG

Eventually you will get some more HG.

But that line up gives the blockers 1/2 chance of picking up random MVP. Therefore, one injury, one TD or go crazy and one pass the Blocker goes up a level. Having MB gives them more abilities to gain points.

From a MB non MB point of view... going on my 2 WD one with and without, the one without was the team's CAS king, in 3 games the one now with MB has seriously threatened the CAS king's title.

IMO MB then Guard would make the more successful.

I'm looking to play them next year, that or undead or skaven. So much choice but one season with these amazons then they are out of here.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, you can alternate MB and Guard, but CDs are slow, are not all that strong, and don't have any Dauntless or damage skills. You need Guard, and you need it early!

Starting 6 Dwarfs is hard. I think the best way to do that is with 1 BC, 4 Hobs, an Apoth, 3 TRR, 30k bank. You have to save 100k to get to that second BC, but you've got a tough, durable team with lots of Block and Tackle, and you only get one blitz per turn anyway. By the time you buy that #2 BC (usually two wins or three games), you've got Block on the first one, and a nice array of complementary Hobgoblins and Guard Dwarfs to help you get Block on the new guy ASAP. I usually start 5 Dwarfs, so I can get both Bulls and still afford a full complement of TRRs.

[Smeborg]

I don't consider starting with 6 CDs to be hard:

1xBC, 6xCD, 6xHG, 3xRR (very resilient starting team, 2 reserves)

Another starting roster that I have had success with is:

1XMinotard, 1XBC, 5XCD, 4xHG, 3xRR (more strength and starting Frenzy)

I don't consider starting with 1xBC to be a problem. By the time you have skilled him up 2 or 3 times, you will have bought the second.

6xCDs early is good - they are the "engine room" of the team.