Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

[Joemanji]

I'd be fine if you brought back traits ... one trait in each category and make it so you can only get the trait if you have access to the category and roll doubles:

Then do:

General: Block
Agility: Dodge
Passing: Leader
Strength: Guard
Mutation: Claw

And it is valued like a doubles roll so +30 to the player.

Not a fan of restrictions, but perhaps a 10K penalty? So players have to pay as if Block/Dodge etc were a double, but can still take it on a normal roll. Hurts some teams more obviously, but less so than making these skills less accessible. These skills would cost 40K if someone took them on a double (i.e. Claw on a Skaven Blitzer).

[plasmoid]

I like that Joemanji!

[GalakStarscraper]

I like that Joemanji!

I'm okay with that as well. If that was the case I'd definitely go with my original list (ie Block/Dodge/Guard/Leader/Claw) for the extra 10k.

Then the rules would just be Traits (marked by a (T) on the Skill Category chart) would cost 10k extra over their normal skill cost).

[Glamdryn]

I like this idea a lot!

Pay for the nasty combos!

[GalakStarscraper]

Been playing a lot of Nurgle lately ... what moron didn't allow Mutations on normal access to the Nurgle Beast.

I want Prehensile Tail for my Beast ... tired of stupid Elves dodging away from me.

[Daht]

Extra 10k would help tv-balance the nasty combos, but wouldn't do much to make them less common.

Another option (that would also not make any skill impossible) would be to make a doubles-trait only available on an odd doubles.

as to what would end up on the str/agi as traits there will always be debate until/unless there is another official crp.

block or wrestle in gen, dodge or sidestep in agi.. in any case would be a good sysem to allow skill-building but break the monotony and help balance spamskill combos

[GalakStarscraper]

I'm having trouble believing that Wrestle has gone from being a question mark on taking at all ... to a skill SO GOOD it is one that would be on the superior list.

I realize its another tool in the Elf world but I haven't seen the Elf races as a whole running away with leagues and online play in any of the data I've seen so far. Not saying that Wrestle is not a good skill ... just that I haven't seen the evidence so far to suggest that its so good as to deserve to be on a list with Block, Dodge, Guard, and Claw. I know Garion believes it ... but I've noticed of late that Garion seems to have a serious Elf hate bias to his posts (since I don't know him from Adam ... I'm just going on the rants I've read him post and looking at where he aims most of his bullets).

Tom/Galak

[Daht]

I think wrestle is useful in some cases, but definitely inferior to block as a 'general' (ie spam style) skill.

aside from some LOS players or a dedicated bring-em-down safety, it's meh.

If block were a trait wrestle would be more useful in general

[garion]

I'm having trouble believing that Wrestle has gone from being a question mark on taking at all ... to a skill SO GOOD it is one that would be on the superior list.

I realize its another tool in the Elf world but I haven't seen the Elf races as a whole running away with leagues and online play in any of the data I've seen so far. Not saying that Wrestle is not a good skill ... just that I haven't seen the evidence so far to suggest that its so good as to deserve to be on a list with Block, Dodge, Guard, and Claw. I know Garion believes it ... but I've noticed of late that Garion seems to have a serious Elf hate bias to his posts (since I don't know him from Adam ... I'm just going on the rants I've read him post and looking at where he aims most of his bullets).

Tom/Galak

Not at all, I am mainly an elf player. I love Skaven, Pro elves and High Elves.. Not so fond of Wood and Dark, Wood Elves because they feel cheap and too easy and Dark Elves just don't feel elfy enough for me.

Wrestle is a funny skill, because on Bash teams it is pretty much useless. On some of the versatille teams it is also pretty useless, like Norse, Lizardmen Necromantic and undead.

But on Elf teams and Skaven, it is uber effective. If you spam wrestle across all your linemen and give block to your 3 catchers, 1 catcher with wrestle too. Then you have 6 Wrestle players in the team all capable of sacking the ball carrier. I just find that incredibly powerful for winning games. My recent reocrd with said teams is - Wood elves - 13/3/1 (win/draw/loss), pro elves 11/2/1, high elves 33/6/12 (was 33/6/6 until my team got destoyed beyond all recognition in a dicey encounter ), skaven 18/5/3 and there are others I'm sure. That is all mainly relying on that skill for sacking the ball carrier then performing a typical elf play to break with the ball. In LRB4 you had to be A LOT more patient when going for the ball. It took far longer to break down a cage and stike at the ball carrier. Now you will happily take 1 dice blocks or even half dice blocks if the carrier hasn't got dodge and surehands and the odds for success are just so good it makes it pretty easy.

I'm not saying its broken by any means or too good, to me it is the balance with bash teams Pilling On. I would say it is equally effective for winning games. The reason I felt that should be a trait would just be if Pilling On and Claw were also made traits, otherwise you would be nerfing bash big time by taking their most effective combo and making it double rolls only and not nerfing agile races. The old agile traits were Jump up and NoS but neither got taken very often because the elves always had great skills anyway. So if you are forcing elves into a situation where they need doubles to build there most effective team Wrestle is the only choice.

I also feel that changing sneakygit to re-roll av or inj like Pilling On except with fouls would be a really nice option for agile races to have. Especially if igeomy was brought back minus the argue roll and the +1 to av roll for fouls as well which I wish it would be. It would give stunty teams a weapon again as well, two doubles on a stunty platyer would be dirty player and Sneaky git, which would be great fun. As always elves wouldn't benefit too greatly from this trait because investing in dirty player and sneaky git would be a 50Tv increase so would disuade many coaches from bothering with it, even though it is potentially so powerful. Pro Elves may possibly benefit from it being the most cost effective of the elves. It would also give a secondary use for human catchers for instance. Skaven wouldnt get it because no one would bother giving it to a GR. It would give lizardmen a nice option for fouling again 2 doubles on their skinks. etc... etc...

However I also like joemanjis solution by putting tiers on the skills and their relative costs. oh and PO should be in that first list

Edit: Here is also a Dark Elf team on fumbbl that does the same - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=647742 I dont use DE so didn't know how well it would work with them but petew has a great record using that same principal - 26/1/3

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
I think the 5 (restricted) traits idea is cute, but I don't think it will fly.

I do think that the 5 expensive (skills) idea is very interesting as a house rule. And in that scenario I don't think that Wrestle needs to be part of the list. I like the simplicity of 1 skill from each category.

All that being said, I think sneaky git as a armor reroll on founds is very interesting. I don't think it would be a good idea to have it as an injury reroll also (like piling on). Combined with DP and the potential for lots of assists, I think it would be way too deadly.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

It would be deadly, however you can only foul once per turn, you can pile on as much as you like each turn. You can also get sent off for fouling. if igeomy was back it means you would only get 2 fouls in a game where you would have good chances of not being seen by the ref (1 in 6 chance of being sent off). Any more fouls would mean 50% chance of being sent off. I would also be happy if igeomy went up to 5+ needed when the eye was on you to avoid getting sent off.

Also from a positional sense, to make a foul count you need to commit a lot of players to 1 prone player to make sure that you break armour, for pilling on, you dont need to forgoe much positional play, you just leave 1 player prone.

You dont need it as an armour re-roll as you should be breaking armour anyway, maybe if it was just an injury re-roll and not armour that would probably be better actually. That way you would need to make sure you got enough TZ round a foul to make it count.

I think personally think it would work and spread the bash out between teams quite nicely.

Also the 1 trait from each section thing was galaks idea, i would prefer a few more traits than that as well.

Edit: Or if your not sold on traits, you could just make sneaky git –re-roll igeomy. Meaning you get the chance to re-roll the igeomy roll when the ref sees your foul. This would give you a 75% chance of staying on when the eye was on you. 98% chance when the eye is not.

[plasmoid]

Personally, this is getting a bit too 'giant-kudzu' for me. Growing and growing...

I hated IGMEOY. Don't want it back.
Didn't much like traits either.

I think as an armor reroll, SG could be used to either hit hard or avoid getting sent off. Nice.

As an injury reroll on something where you can have +1 from DP and get an easy armor break from assists, I fear the mas damage that could be done. At least POMBers sometimes burn their +1 or their reroll on the armor roll.
I know fouling is only once per turn. So is POMBing if your opponent stays out of contact. For someone who hates POMB with such a burning passion, I'm surprised you'd like to see more of the same. I get that elfs could bite back, but I'm more worried about teams emplying bboth POMBers and DPSG. I'd rather see a nerf to POMB - but we've been over that already

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

get that elfs could bite back, but I'm more worried about teams emplying bboth POMBers and DPSG. I'd rather see a nerf to POMB - but we've been over that already

Cheers
Martin

But no teams could employ both CPOMB and DPSG if they were traits.

You may not like traits, and I’m very surprised you don’t but the lack of traits in this edition are the sole cause of the problems surrounding Hyperbash (CPOMB) and hyperball (the agility version ). The previous edition had RSC/Claw two doubles, this edition the killer combo should still be two doubles. The openness of skill selection is THE problem imo, I’m as sure as sure can be. So regardless of likes or dislikes of traits I’m very confident that bringing back traits would solve a lot of the problems with this rule set. Either traits or ageing, to stop teams developing exactly as they please. I would also be happy to see ageing back as well personally, just no ageing roll for first skills and then start the rolls from second skill on. But I understand people weren’t overly fond of ageing even though it was such a vital mechanism of the game.

Why don’t you like igeomy, I though only noobs didn’t like it

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
I guess we disagree on some fairly fundamental stuff

But no teams could employ both CPOMB and DPSG if they were traits.

Could be I've been reading sloppily, but I hadn't noticed anyone suggesting DP or SG as traits (?)
*cough*Kudzu*cough*
Either way, there are still a few teams that could do it, but admittedly not many.

You may not like traits, and I’m very surprised you don’t but the lack of traits in this edition are the sole cause of the problems surrounding Hyperbash (CPOMB) and hyperball (the agility version). The previous edition had RSC/Claw two doubles, this edition the killer combo should still be two doubles. The openness of skill selection is THE problem imo, I’m as sure as sure can be.

Well, my experience is different.
I used to commish a very large TT league with an open schedule. I think having very powerful skills (traits) available only on doubles rolls didn't just play into the hands of the lucky coaches (such is Blood Bowl ), but played into the hands of the extremely active coaches. Hyper-active coaches would be almost guaranteed to build considerably better teams than the slightly less active coaches.
Wouldn't that affect FUMBBL too?
The 30 game chaos team and the 80 game chaos team could both be at TV230, but one would be stacked with doubles combo killers.

And I think that the talk of skill monotony is a case of TV over-management related to TV-matching opponents. In league play, I take the doubles most of the time. I think there is plenty of diversity in that. (I certainly don't get the claims that in LRB4, where your 4th and 5th skills would cost you crazy ammounts of TV, was encouraging picking outlandish/weak skills. But that's probably a discussion for another thread).

In short: I think that powerskills are better fixed by doing a straight nerf than be doing a structural change.

...speaking of which:

Why don’t you like igeomy, I though only noobs didn’t like it

I played 3rd ed before IGMEOY, so I think IGMEOY love is noobish
But seriously, I remember when JJ cooked up IGMEOY as a knee-jerk, bording on the spastical, reaction to an outsider proving in the GW league that +2/+2 DP was completely broken.
Rather than fix DP, he came up with that.
I've never like it.
Nor the 'tactics' related to it:
Soft teams not fouling, except on turn 1 and 8.
Spending ridiculous time hunting down DPs.
Hard teams with lots of cheap DP linemen just fouling and fouling and fouling.
I know that a lot of the problem was the power of DP.
But with DP severely weakened, I think IGMEOY would be absolute overkill.

I prefer the lower risk lower reward to the extreme risk extreme reward scenario.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

I have decided to jsut put a ferw commments in here and there in red it makes it easier

Hi Garion,
I guess we disagree on some fairly fundamental stuff

But no teams could employ both CPOMB and DPSG if they were traits.

Could be I've been reading sloppily, but I hadn't noticed anyone suggesting DP or SG as traits (?)
*cough*Kudzu*cough*
Either way, there are still a few teams that could do it, but admittedly not many.
Yup but they would never bother with it, like Gutter Runners, Vampires or Slann blitzers being used for fouling, and yeah I was suggesting SG as a trait with the proposed change making it re-roll injury, as well you know hehe

You may not like traits, and I’m very surprised you don’t but the lack of traits in this edition are the sole cause of the problems surrounding Hyperbash (CPOMB) and hyperball (the agility version). The previous edition had RSC/Claw two doubles, this edition the killer combo should still be two doubles. The openness of skill selection is THE problem imo, I’m as sure as sure can be.

Well, my experience is different.

I used to commish a very large TT league with an open schedule. I think having very powerful skills (traits) available only on doubles rolls didn't just play into the hands of the lucky coaches (such is Blood Bowl ), but played into the hands of the extremely active coaches. Hyper-active coaches would be almost guaranteed to build considerably better teams than the slightly less active coaches.
Wouldn't that affect FUMBBL too?
The 30 game chaos team and the 80 game chaos team could both be at TV230, but one would be stacked with doubles combo killers.
Yup this is true, and a very valid arguement, but creating those unique players was where the fun was in team building imo, possibly not as fair in someways but more interesting, but in an environment with powerful fouling and bash both available on doubles, both would be used for hunting down these players and killing them, at the moment the only reliable way for killing hyperbash (CPOMB) is more hyperbash, and because you are safer on the ground after pilling on than you are standing (one of things i dislike most about this ruleset) these games are often decide by who wins the coin toss at the start, destoying one team while the other takes minimal damage. Also making Claw and pilling on doubles would limit the amount your could have in your team because it would be two doubles each time and you would reach SE quicker and it would make facing teams stacked heavily with it more managable through more inducements given and less cpomb on the pitch at once even when extremely lucky. Also making it two double would encourage people to take Prehensile Tail and Tentacles etc... Also I think the bank rule would also add to a CPOMB heavy teams troubles, the more I play this rule set the more obvious it is that this should have stayed in. Silly JJ

And I think that the talk of skill monotony is a case of TV over-management related to TV-matching opponents. In league play, I take the doubles most of the time. I think there is plenty of diversity in that. (I certainly don't get the claims that in LRB4, where your 4th and 5th skills would cost you crazy ammounts of TV, was encouraging picking outlandish/weak skills. But that's probably a discussion for another thread). That wasn't my point I was arguing that in LRB4 you were encouraged to spread your skills out among all your players for fear of ageing, now you can happily build your most important players up quickly. For instance, I just started a skaven team on fumbbl after 1 game i created a GR with Wrestle and Strip ball 5 touchdowns and completion, in LRB4 i would have been more likely to spread those skills out to blodge up all my GRs for fear of failing ageing, same happened in second game got my blitzer 2 skills MB and PO instead of gettign them both their first skill

In short: I think that powerskills are better fixed by doing a straight nerf than be doing a structural change. You may be right, but the problem with this is if you keep making skills weaker you are in danger of making all teams vanilla

...speaking of which:

Why don’t you like igeomy, I though only noobs didn’t like it

I played 3rd ed before IGMEOY, so I think IGMEOY love is noobish
But seriously, I remember when JJ cooked up IGMEOY as a knee-jerk, bording on the spastical, reaction to an outsider proving in the GW league that +2/+2 DP was completely broken. hehe
Rather than fix DP, he came up with that.
I've never like it.
Nor the 'tactics' related to it:
Soft teams not fouling, except on turn 1 and 8.
Spending ridiculous time hunting down DPs. I liked that part of it, it added a new tactical dimension to positional play
Hard teams with lots of cheap DP linemen just fouling and fouling and fouling. agreed hence making the new fouling trait Ag only and only on doubles
I know that a lot of the problem was the power of DP.
But with DP severely weakened, I think IGMEOY would be absolute overkill. again see new sneaky git rules, try to remeber all the changes in one whole, i think they would work in unison very very well
I prefer the lower risk lower reward to the extreme risk extreme reward scenario.

Cheers
Martin