How to defend with "new" High Elves against Bash

[mattgslater]

Eventually, by the time you really should be facing 1.5M opponents, you'll have enough skills on your linemen that you can front off against a cage long enough to crack it. I've been pretty successful just with normal skills on High Elves. No Guard means you want Dauntless, but I don't even have that on the Expatriates, and they do fine vs. bash (though they do make more 1d blocks than I'm used to).

I don't think starting build matters a lot. Blitzers are great in rookie-on-rookie play, and they're worth their TV at any level, but against veteran opposition, rookie Blitzers can disappoint. I like manning the sidelines with them: my Blitzer build is Side Step - Dodge - Tackle - Fend - (Dauntless or Frenzy or Diving Tackle, depending on team and opposition). Catchers are your workhorses, but you don't need them. Throwers are fun but not necessary: I like having one at peak, but not so much at the beginning. If I were entering a rookie team in a veteran field, I'd consider one: Safe Throw can save your bacon.

I like running 12 men with 6-7 linemen. Five linemen are line-rotation players, with one kicker and maybe one other guy with stats. Line-rotation players get your choice of Dodge, Block, and Wrestle: pick one of those skills for three, and the other two can get either a different one or Side Step: I like to get a couple SS'ers right away, then once I have three ignoring the skill in favor of Block/Wrestle and Dodge. Eventually, you'll end up with tons of Blodgestep or Wrodgestep players. The Kicker becomes a great toolbox target, a place to put skills you would otherwise put on a Catcher or Blitzer: Wrestle after Kick, then I like Tackle or Frenzy. If your Kicker dies, you can replace him with a Catcher and get Kick as a #3 skill on one of your other Catchers.

The Wizard is the best inducement. Young teams get great value from Moranion: he helps make up for a lack of Guard or Dodge. Eldril is cool, but he's more cool than good unless Hypnotic Gaze is the last piece of the puzzle. Soaren and Dolfar are warm bodies and better than Mercenaries: Soaren is a good player for an underdog team because he lets you play more loosely and liberally, and gives you the advantage of a Thrower without having to reserve one on your roster spot. Still, only if you're down enough to get him and a Wizard, and if he doesn't affect your decision vis-a-vis Moranion.

[juck101]

Yeah matt has this spot on. All good bits of advise

Consider if you can break a cage AND muscle in; its worth it if you can get two players zoning the ball carrier. If you can only get one guy or less, it might be best to wait and you need to block the cage from progressing. Easy enough to say but generally that is good advise on a turn by turn basis. If they dont score at all you done ok

[Smeborg]

Lost 2:1.
I'm still puzzled how I should ever get a ball out of a cage. (apart from a wizard)
He has 2 guarders and there's no way for me to get inside that monster. If I blitz a corner of a cage the orcs bash the hell out of anyone who went in.

Generally speaking, there are 3 ways to break such a cage (2 of the 3 methods may also be combined):

(a) Most aggressive - a Blitz directly against the ball carrier (necessitating a 5+ dodge or a 3+ leap). This means an uphill block (2 dice he chooses). A Re-roll helps a lot, as do various skills: Wrestle (especially), Dodge, Leap, Tackle (if ball-carrier has Dodge), Pro. If you have sufficient Re-rolls available, or enough suitably skilled players, the Blitz can be repeated as many times as necessary until the ball is popped loose (twice is often enough with a developed team). With a rookie team, you will be unlikely to pop the ball directly (say at best 9.5% chance with Re-roll), but you have a decent chance that your blitzer will remain standing next to the ball-carrier, causing your opponent all kinds of problems. If you take the Blitz with a player with Block, and have a re-roll in hand, the chance of either popping the ball, or at least remaining standing, are 45.7%. If you are able to do this 2 turns in a row, the odds go up to 70%. These odds go up very fast once you have Dodge, Wrestle, Leap etc. Even if your blitzer ends up on the ground, if he is prone, he is still next to the ball-carrier, and threatening to Blitz him next turn (assuming your opponent cannot easily move the cage).

(b) Fairly standard - man-marking the cage corners (as well as free AG3 players) so that the cage collapses under its own weight. Sidestep helps enormously, as do Block, Dodge, and again Wrestle. If one or two of the cage corners are double marked, it is hard for your opponent to push everyone away, meaning that you get the chance to create an opening next turn. He may well be forced to take risks in moving the ball some distance, or re-forming the cage (perhaps dodges or GFIs required) or you may force him to score early (allowing you a chance to score back). Even a rookie team can do this.

(c) Least aggressive, but still appropriate in the right circumstances - attacking (Blitzing) a cage corner and putting as many players as possible next to the ball-carrier (usually 2). Unlikely to work unless combined with (b).

(d) A combination of the above (a+b or b+c) is probably best. You may create a situation, for example, where the ball-carrier is pushed next to more than one of your own players. The key is to realise that an uphill Blitz can be your friend (2 dice he chooses), that you have the initiative, and that it's best to make the attack on the cage while you still have plenty of players on the pitch. With a rookie team, you are unlikely to have the means to prevent the cage moving forwards (lots of Blodge/S-Step, for example), thus you need to formulate a plan to attack the cage aggressively when the moment is ripe.

Hope that helps.

[Iranian Spy]

Against a team like that I don't bother breaking the cage. I jockey it with high elves with 5-6 players and use the rest to beat up on the orcs outside the cage, getting as many line pushes as possible, if possible. If he comes close to scoring I consider blitzing a corner to slow him down a bit, but otherwise I'm happy to slow his drive all day. Woodelves are another matter with their wardancers but high elves, particularly starting ones have less options.

[Trollblanc]

Thank you for all the infos - I played Chaos Pact (bash style) the season before and was a little bit scared to put too many people in base contact with the greenskins. (with all the block I just go down) - but I might have underestimated the AV8.
I thought the way to go is (as posted above) slow the cage down - but that only helped his grind in that situation.

I wasn't very daring in the game - a single death (or broken stat) sets the team back by a huge amount of gold with high elves

[Smeborg]

I thought the way to go is (as posted above) slow the cage down - but that only helped his grind in that situation.

That can work once you have a few skills, but I don't find it much use for rookie HEs. Instead, you have to pick the right moment to swarm the cage. The alternative is to concede the drive, but this will likely lose you the game 1-2. The Wizard may get you a win or a draw, but you can't rely on that.

[soranos]

Don't listen to those 3DB-guys on this. That was the only time I ever listened to their podcast, because HE are my favorite team and I found their advice to be pretty weak, especially the bit about Blitzers. Hell, they even stated that they don't really like the team much.

Blitzers are potentially great and your best players. A big reason that Dark Elves are arguably the best team in CRP is that they have 4 of those guys and can develop their potential in all different directions. On almost every team, Blitzer-type players are the best ones all around and HE is no exception to that rule.

Catchers are obviously important players as well, but they are fragile and need too much time to develop into true impact players (16 SPP at least, opposed to 6 SPP on the Blitzers). I personally feel if any player on the roster is a little overpriced those guys are. I actually have a higher opinion on catch than most guys (although I would never give it to any player on a skill-up), since I consider it helpful to have 1 or 2 rather safe outlets for a pass or hand-off, when it is raining or the player is marked but having to pay up to 4 times for it, decrease the marginal gain with each additional Catch-Skill so much that it leads to a bit of bloat.
This is one of the reasons I consider myself part of the school of thought that stay at 2-3 catcher rather than picking all 4. Especially against bashers it is often favorable to have that additional AV8 meat-shield on the field that you more inclined to put in harm's way. In an open league this is less critical as it is easier to build players back up by playing teams with a lower TV or less bashy races. In a scheduled league this is often more difficult. So I rather stay at 2-3 Catchers and be able to protect them better long-term even though my 1 game-off punching power might be a bit better with 4 developed catchers (as long as they last).

Also don't forget the Linos, who are more vital to the team than for the other elfs or almost all races save for Dorfs/Chaos.

Damn, I am already writing too much again. Maybe we should a huge HE strategy thread going like we have had with other races. Maybe on the weekend, when I have more time, I will start one. Should be interesting, since I have notices that as bland as the team appears they are quiet a lot of differences when it comes to team building and strategies.

[mattgslater]

Don't listen to those 3DB-guys on this. That was the only time I ever listened to their podcast, because HE are my favorite team and I found their advice to be pretty weak, especially the bit about Blitzers. Hell, they even stated that they don't really like the team much.

Bummer. High Elves are one of my two favorite teams. Scoreability meets skill memory!

[Trollblanc]

Going against Necro today against the most experienced player in our FFA league (aaaaaaaaaah! )
Regarding the blitzers: I'm SO glad you guys all posted about this on the topic - I did take both of them and I would have cried and cried and cried some more against those bashing orcs without at least a bit of block (MA7 is also nice)

I'm hoping to get 1 or 2 linemen skilled after todays game - most of you said dodge, some said wrestle.
I'm tempted to go wrestle/dodge because I hate to give everyone on my team the same skill (dodge for blitzers is a "must", dodge on linemen, dodge on catchers is also nice... *sigh*)

[soranos]

Don't listen to those 3DB-guys on this. That was the only time I ever listened to their podcast, because HE are my favorite team and I found their advice to be pretty weak, especially the bit about Blitzers. Hell, they even stated that they don't really like the team much.

Bummer. High Elves are one of my two favorite teams. Scoreability meets skill memory!

Yes, I expect you to give your input. I think tomorrow I should have some time on my hands and start the thread.

[klauser]

Bummer. High Elves are one of my two favorite teams. Scoreability meets skill memory!

Matt, what do you mean by 'skill memory'? Is it a function of survivability and diminishing returns of additional skills?

[mattgslater]

Bummer. High Elves are one of my two favorite teams. Scoreability meets skill memory!

Matt, what do you mean by 'skill memory'? Is it a function of survivability and diminishing returns of additional skills?

Yup. High Elves earn a ton of SPP, and suffer slower-than-average turnover: what a great combination!

That's also why I like Orcs. They earn more slowly, but they're all-but immortal.

[Trollblanc]

Due to the fact that I didn't find the "new" HE thread yet:

Sure Hands or Accurate on the Thrower? Or something else? (singles)
Thank you

[mattgslater]

My Thrower track: Dodge, Block, Accurate, Sure Hands. Strong Arm on doubles. I don't retrieve with him: I retrieve with whoever needs the QP credit. This guy's job is to get the ball from way upfield to way downfield in one easy action. I also send him to the LOS if I have to.

Thrower-as-Retiever track: Dodge, Sure Hands, Block, Accurate.

[RogueThirteen]

I would take Accurate as it makes your thrower good at the one thing he's supposed to do - keep the option open for a passing play that moves your offense rapidly. In reality, your thrower isn't really any more likely than anyone else to pick the ball up, as that all depends on the placement of kicks and drops. And, as noted above, typically someone who's 1SPP away from leveling will do the pick up and pitch it to the thrower. So Sure Hands seems like a waste. It might be good if you want some protection from Strip Ball, but even then without Block and Dodge Sure Hands will do little good against a leaping, ball-stripping blitz. So from a defense perspective, Sure Hands seems better on someone with Blodge already.


Given that, I'd take (in fact, I took) Accurate as my thrower's first skill and it turns him into an immediate powerhouse on offense with Safe Throw already there. The opponent always has to play defense with the possibility that anyone you have on the field could potentially get the ball next turn. Dodge doesn't seem as good on the Thrower because he should not be marked or hit unless something has already gone wrong. And on those rare times where he does find himself marked, a TRR will be more efficacious than a wasted player skill. Accurate, however, will be perpetually useful.

If you're worried about getting your thrower into and then out of a dangerous spot to retrieve the ball, you shouldn't be. Let another devoted player who's got Dodge get in, get the ball, and get out to hand it to the thrower. Everyone picks the ball up just as well as anyone else.