Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

[voyagers_uk]

[Mod hat on] cbbakke (see, you can tell I'm serious as I've spelt your name correctly)- if you want a Claw thread, go to a forum that will let you spout your misquotes, attacks etc. freely - you are not doing it here.

Oh, and aim you posts at contents, not the posters - this is an official warning.[/mod at off]

I have not even said anything about claw in this entire thread. Others have brought it up, but I have not. I have talked about Basher teams, which includes Orcs and Dwarves. I have also talked about a handful of other aspects of it, but you see my name and in your mind it is about claw. You don't like me, that is fine. It is a two way street. But at least come at me with something I have done.

[Mod hat on]
cbbakke - I have no issue with you, no moderator on this site would grind a personal axe during moderation of the site. That is not how we do things here. Darksons points were valid and i would have done it if he hadn't. Behave on this site please or further action would have to be reviewed.
[/Mod hat off]
oh and I am enjoying the thread too at least whilst it is on topic. Martin's PO change is attractive and could bring back some of the crowd who left for lack of blood. as opposed to bash

[dode74]

I think that proposing solutions before defining the problem is part of the issue here. What, exactly, is the problem, and what are our priorities? Is fun more important than balance? What are the acceptable bounds of balance for T1 teams (e.g. the 45-55% gate we have currently, or wider/narrower)? How do we determine which solutions are more fun, given the very individual nature of what we find fun?

I think that simply throwing solutions to an undefined problem around is about as productive as discussing claw

[Glamdryn]

I think that proposing solutions before defining the problem is part of the issue here. What, exactly, is the problem, and what are our priorities? Is fun more important than balance? What are the acceptable bounds of balance for T1 teams (e.g. the 45-55% gate we have currently, or wider/narrower)? How do we determine which solutions are more fun, given the very individual nature of what we find fun?

I think that simply throwing solutions to an undefined problem around is about as productive as discussing claw

Actually I'd disagree. I think that a lot of the fun is taking the proposed solutions and trying them out. If I see an idea that I think may be fun, I like to try it out. The game is about having fun. Balance only leads to the fun experience.

So far there has been a ton of good ideas in this thread. I am considering using quite a few of them for my next TT season.

[voyagers_uk]

it would be useful to summarise the good stuff so far.

any volunteers (looks at Mr Laerkes)

[Darkson]

While I'd like Traits back in, I don't think Galak's suggestion (with or without Joe's input) is the way to go - seems to swing the balance in favour of those teams that would already be spamming the new "traits" (Dwarfs, 'Zons, Norse, and maybe CDs).


However, I do like the suggestion of the old dodge part of Stand Firm working in the same way as JU - makes it a good skill on BGs, Saurus and Mummys with risk of failure.

[dode74]

Actually I'd disagree. I think that a lot of the fun is taking the proposed solutions and trying them out. If I see an idea that I think may be fun, I like to try it out. The game is about having fun. Balance only leads to the fun experience.

So far there has been a ton of good ideas in this thread. I am considering using quite a few of them for my next TT season.

If we were in a position to carry out extensive testing on all of the ideas then I'd agree completely. Some very odd ideas might produce results which are both balanced and fun. Unfortunately we are not in such a position, even with the aid of FUMBBL and other online leagues, so I think it needs to be targeted to gather sufficient data to draw useful conclusions. I'm all for house rules, and obviously you can do what you like in your league, but I was under the impression we were proposing changes to the core rules here... or did I misconstrue the title?

[Chris]

While I'd like Traits back in, I don't think Galak's suggestion (with or without Joe's input) is the way to go - seems to swing the balance in favour of those teams that would already be spamming the new "traits" (Dwarfs, 'Zons, Norse, and maybe CDs).


However, I do like the suggestion of the old dodge part of Stand Firm working in the same way as JU - makes it a good skill on BGs, Saurus and Mummys with risk of failure.

I think as an added overhead (+10k etc) it works better than as a trait.

Stand firm - yes I hadn't realised it had changed until my flesh golem fell over online.

How though to seperate it from break tackle? I don't like the idea of an extra dice roll, any other way?

I believe it used to be if you failed to dodge you would stop in the square you were going to? Why not have it do something like that. Maybe don't move at all.

Or have fail to dodge stay on feet in target square but its a turnover?

[garion]

it would be useful to summarise the good stuff so far.

any volunteers (looks at Mr Laerkes)

Here is a sumary of where my idea is up too, mainly around traits etc.... Laerkes please update with where your idea is up to with the pricing and skill nerfs etc.... Cbbakke, Dode please contribute with constructive critique but please try and keep your ongoing arguements out of this thread please, not just for me but for the community and so people can keep up with the thread Many thanks

P.S Glad you like "my" Stand Firm idea darkson. you can actually thank Pgoo for that one, i just nicked it Great idea though imo.

[Chris]

Your argue the ref bit - didn't it use to disadvantage you when rolling for brillant coaching?

[cbbakke]

I think that proposing solutions before defining the problem is part of the issue here. What, exactly, is the problem, and what are our priorities? Is fun more important than balance? What are the acceptable bounds of balance for T1 teams (e.g. the 45-55% gate we have currently, or wider/narrower)? How do we determine which solutions are more fun, given the very individual nature of what we find fun?

I think that simply throwing solutions to an undefined problem around is about as productive as discussing claw

this is not the claw thread go back your own somewhere else please


One of the ideas that I saw somewhere that I thought was interesting was skills taken out of mutation, str and agility costing extra per time taken by the player.

So the first str skill would be normal, the next would be 30k, the next would be 40k for example. I just threw the numbers in there for the example so don't get stuck on them.

I do think that if you did this some of the str skills would need to be buffed or moved into another group.

I have kind of liked the idea for grab having the additional effect. If the player with grab hits somebody they "tag them" if that person tries to dodge away on the next turn they get a -1 to dodge or tentacles only on that player.

[garion]

it would be useful to summarise the good stuff so far.

any volunteers (looks at Mr Laerkes)

Here is a sumary of where my idea is up too, mainly around traits etc.... Laerkes please update with where your idea is up to with the pricing and skill nerfs etc.... Cbbakke, Dode please contribute with constructive critique but please try and keep your ongoing arguements out of this thread please, not just for me but for the community and so people can keep up with the thread Many thanks

P.S Glad you like "my" Stand Firm idea darkson. you can actually thank Pgoo for that one, i just nicked it Great idea though imo.

Here is a slightly updated version of those ideas around traits etc....
added in the spirraling expenses and bank rule, also added some stuff about star players and rosters but that hasnt been thought out yet and should be ignored for now

edit: On top of the changes below their would be a slightly revised version of the kick off table, just swapping blitz with Get the ref. Get the ref is currently a roll of 2 and blitz is a 10 and the CRP nerf to get the ref really doesnt warrent it being the least probable kick off result, get the ref moving to a roll of 10 would also mean there would be more chance of bribes being in play which if you read the document attached you will understand why it would better for the game if that was more frequent. Also for me Blitz along with pitch invasion are the biggest game changers out of the kick of results so it stands to reason that blitz is moved to a roll of 2.

[cbbakke]

I just browsed over the notes. First off, very nicely put together.

general thoughts:

1. I like the traits idea overall. Standfirm seems pretty good, but it is similar to what it did in a past edition.

2. Love the change to dirty player and sneaky git. Fouling will be a little more bloody but at a cost. I love argue the call brought back in also. Having the ref change the call or the coach getting kicked out are always a fun touch.

idea: I had the idea before on fouling that on the armor roll you only got caught on doubles. On the injury roll if either dice was 5 or 6 then you are caught. It saves the extra roll for the ref and keeping track of the "eye" but gives around the same overall chance of getting caught. If you roll a 5 or 6 on injury it is a KO at worse if you have DP and most likely a CAS.

3. Dwarf lineman losing tackle is very nice. Long time coming imo.

4. Human blitzer cost change is nice. Does this include the human catchers having 8 AV? I think that makes the catcher for more playable on the pitch.

5. Orc blitzer 90k. Fair change.

6. I like the weapons not being automatically off the pitch. Goblins need their toys.

7. Amazon team with so much 2 str, I think would really hurt them.

Random thoughts:
a. I really miss the flavor the cards brought. I think some of them were garbage and some were way too good but overall it brought a nice touch to the game.

b. Chaos beastman starting with a random mutation instead of horns. all horns does not seem very chaotic. the concern has been brought up of people rolling their team over and over till they get good mutations. I can see people doing that. My solution is that when the player gets their first skill they reroll their startign mutation before that skill and then at that point it locks in.

c. On a pass being thrown the path of the ball is determined before interception is worked out so a scattered pass could wander over a defenders head.

[garion]

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback, glad you like the changes so far, reply to your post appear in red next to your points.

I just browsed over the notes. First off, very nicely put together.

general thoughts:

1. I like the traits idea overall. Standfirm seems pretty good, but it is similar to what it did in a past edition. yup it is pretty good, but it is a trait now so requires doubles, i think the ag roll+2 stops it being too good

2. Love the change to dirty player and sneaky git. Fouling will be a little more bloody but at a cost. I love argue the call brought back in also. Having the ref change the call or the coach getting kicked out are always a fun touch.

3. Dwarf lineman losing tackle is very nice. Long time coming imo. Still not sure about the longbeards losing tackle and the blitzers gaining it to be honest. Dwarves are really really slow and it is their anti elf skill really. Need to think about this one properly

4. Human blitzer cost change is nice. Does this include the human catchers having 8 AV? I think that makes the catcher for more playable on the pitch. No, Catchers stay the same


5. Orc blitzer 90k. Fair change.

6. I like the weapons not being automatically off the pitch. Goblins need their toys. Yup, my feelings too, although going to lower the roll for fanatic because it is so good now

7. Amazon team with so much 2 str, I think would really hurt them. the amazon team one isnt right I know that, will spend some time thinking about how to make them more interesting today

Random thoughts:
a. I really miss the flavor the cards brought. I think some of them were garbage and some were way too good but overall it brought a nice touch to the game. Cards are still in the game as inducements, no need to change anything there

b. Chaos beastman starting with a random mutation instead of horns. all horns does not seem very chaotic. the concern has been brought up of people rolling their team over and over till they get good mutations. I can see people doing that. My solution is that when the player gets their first skill they reroll their startign mutation before that skill and then at that point it locks in. too big a change, would like to see how things panned out first before doing somethign so drastic, also i think that would be frought with problems too

c. On a pass being thrown the path of the ball is determined before interception is worked out so a scattered pass could wander over a defenders head. I get where you are coming form, because it has always seemed pretty crazy to me too, however it works and if it aint broke don't fix it, messing with that opens a can of worms

Also any feedback on the new skills?

[garion]

Oh also, here is the next version, with more added, a few extra changes such as change to the kick off table, more clarity for the fanatic, lowered his penalty roll by 1 and some other stuff.

Enjoy

made some changes to zons now too, hopefully people will like them. Still not 100% sold on it mayself but it is certainly more interesting.

[dode74]

Traits - we could argue about which ones should and shouldn't be until the cows come home. Can you confirm whether PO would be the current CRP PO under this system? I see nothing to say it wouldn't, but want to clarify
I'm not so sure about leader as a trait - the whole idea of it is to reduce TV for rerolls, and by making it a trait it costs more. I don't know what I would choose as a passing trait, or even if one is necessary.

Changes to actions - good. Fouling needs a buff.

Changes to rules:
Secret weapons - I like the idea that more obvious weapons get sent off more easily, but think that the costs might need adjusting.
Bribes - I assume you mean they always work? i.e. you always get the reroll?
Fouling - Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but this seems like a BIG nerf to fouling - you basically have a 50% chance of being sent off, rising to 83.33% with the eye on you. Under current rules it is never more than 33%. Under LRB4 the foul was spotted on a 6, with the eye being a 2+. I'd prefer that, tbh.
Arguing the call - nice to have back.
SE - good
Bank - excellent.

Skill changes:
Stand Firm - curious about this being a G skill (trait or otherwise). I think that making it a trait will be quite a nerf to some S based teams where Guard and Stand Firm really help the positional war.
Sneaky Git - back to the old eye for this player, then. Personally I prefer the "acts as guard for fouls" version.
DP - ok. Not sure if 2+ combined with the 1+ from the action change isn't a bit much. More on fouling later...
Dauntless - too much, I personally think. It'll make horns+dauntless massively powerful - basically giving you a 5/6 chance of a 2d block on any player with ST4 without assists.

New skills:
Swift kick - very nice.
Taunt - I think this is excellent. It'll really make positioning interesting and is a very powerful skill. I'd consider making this one a general trait over stand firm (which I'd prefer still to be an S skill).
Kick'n'run - meh. Don't know how much it'd be taken.
Soft Lander - possibly combine with sure feet?

(skipped the star players )

Roster changes:
Ogres - ok.
Khemri - Not a fan. How about lose decay on TGs, make AV8 and give them thick skull? They'd stay on the pitch about the same amount as they currently do (a touch less, actually) but wouldn't suffer as many debilitating injuries.
Human - It's a good start. I'd like to see 0-2 8247 Dodge Catch GA catchers, but that doesn't seem popular.
Vampire - sure, why not?
Orcs - Why? I don't see the need, especially if human blitzers are coming down in price.
Dwarves - I think dwarves need tackle on longbeards. I'd prefer the "right stuff" changes proposed by Plasmoid so that stunties get protected, but think that this will really hurt a very slow team which relies on preventing the other team moving.
Slann - not played them, so won't comment.
Amazon - Waaaay to much ST2. Nice to see the Krox, and the variation in stats with the Blitzers and Catchers, but the linewomen need ST2.

General point - fouling seems to be a major focus, and I like that you want to change it. What I am not so keen on is that to be effective under this ruleset it needs to be carried out by skilled players. Very little fouling will happen with the eye as you have it set up (50% chance to be sent off? No thanks!) and people will have to try to build dedicated foulers before they'll even try it. I'd probably keep DP at +1 (as it is now), keep the action change, make SG act as guard, keep Swift Kick and go back to the lrb4 eye.