Undead v Necro

[swilhelm73]

Two of the most similar teams in BB are the Necro and Undead teams. Chaos and Nurgle also largely overlap, but the latter is intentionally designed to not be as competitive.

Looking at the NE and UN rosters, the changes are

Flesh Golem 110k 4/4/2/9 SF, TS, Regen Gen/Str replaces
Mummy 120k 3/5/1/9 MB, Regen Str

Werewolf 120k 8/3/3/8 Claw, Frenzy Regen Gen/Ag replaces
Ghoul 70k 7/3/3/7 Dodge Gen/Ag

Necro can't take skeletons

So...looking at the changes, beyond low TV, aren't the Necros clearly stronger?

I'd call the Mummy v FG matchup a wash - primarily because the skill access helps greatly to mitigate the loss of one point of ST.

St3 Frenzy without block is a liability, but once the team has some guard and block on the WWs it becomes a pretty strong benefit. And certainly Regen and AV8 makes the WW clearly superior to Ghouls in the mid to long term.

And generally, the only way I see undead coaches uses SKs is as designated foulers.

Thoughts?

[RogueThirteen]

The teams will play pretty differently. The wolves end up being a lot more aggressive than ghouls, which lends itself to fairly different gameplay.


Undead are a lot better right out of the gate, as they can get everything they want on a starting roster practically.

Necro have to really sacrifice something at the start, usually only taking one wolf and sometimes not taking any flesh golems.


At higher TVs I suspect Necro may seem like they'd be far and away better once they've acquired all of their positionals, but don't forget that by that time the Undead will likely have acquired more rerolls / deeper bench than the Necros because of their freed up cash after rounding out their ghouls. Additionally, all the big players for Undead will have been around since Game 1 and are therefore more likely to be more skilled than Necro, where some of the wolves, ghouls, and/or flesh golems won't have been around for very many games yet.

The mummies will also level much faster than the golems in general, because neither will be scoring touchdowns. So the cage-corner / player-removal duo for Undead will be much more effective than the golem twins. Not to mention, against a team with lots of Str 4 (Orcs, Lizards, etc) having those Str 5 mummies will make a lot of difference, especially since undead/necro teams won't typically have much Guard (or at least not as much as their opponents). But, necro's 2x wolves, 2x ghouls does seem more potent than 4x ghouls.

So, all in all, I think both teams have their advantages, but at the end of the day I'd say their pretty much on par after some development. And they are both definitely competitive teams. Can't go wrong with either, really.

[mattgslater]

Mummy > FG

Werewolf > Ghoul

Necros have a tougher cost curve; that's the main reason they're harder to play. That, and the awesome superiority of Mummies.

[Smeborg]

Undead are one of the very best teams in the game. 2 x ST5+M-Blow players (non-Loner). 4 x MA7 players with starting Dodge. They are among the cheapest of all teams (TV of 115 for 14 players and 3 RR). They are a very good team from the first game. They seem to play in a clean and "classical" way.

Necros are also rather good, but not as good (in my experience). They need a purchase or 2 and some skills before they can match a team like Undead. Doubles are important to them, both for the Wolves (M-Blow) and for the Zombies (Guard). You cannot rely on getting doubles, so getting a great team is a bit of a lottery. They are weaker but faster than Undead, and play a more open, scrambled, wild kind of game. Development options for Necros are less clear and more varied. Both teams are rather popular.

In my experience, Nurgle are difficult to master, but perform a bit better than Chaos, due to their starting skills. Chaos, on the other hand, are not difficult to play, but do not seem to perform as well as you might think. Because of their starting skills, it's easier to come up with a skill development plan for Nurgle. Chaos, on the other hand, with just 2 player types (+ Big Guy), and few starting skills, require a well-thought out and disciplined approach to development (everyone has GSM access). Chaos without a Minotard are a relatively cheap team now (14 players and 3 RR for a TV of 123 - also, you can start with 4 Warriors and 3 RR). This makes them more popular in our league.

Hope that helps.

[MKL]

Undead are one of the very best teams in the game.
(...)
They are a very good team from the first game. They seem to play in a clean and "classical" way.

Necros are also rather good, but not as good (in my experience).
(...)
Doubles are important to them (...) You cannot rely on getting doubles, so getting a great team is a bit of a lottery. They are weaker but faster than Undead, and play a more open, scrambled, wild kind of game. Development options for Necros are less clear and more varied. Both teams are rather popular.

Agree with Smeborg's analysis. Very well put too.

[swilhelm73]

They need a purchase or 2 and some skills before they can match a team like Undead. Doubles are important to them, both for the Wolves (M-Blow) and for the Zombies (Guard).

How is this different between the two teams?

Both have 4 players with ST access so guard on Ghouls/Zombies on both teams is a major bonus.

MB is incredible on the WWs indeed, and while you can't guarantee getting it, even without it, this leaves the long term damage skills in NE's favor, since they will both likely have the same number of players with MB, but Necros will have claws too.

I certainly agree on the starting advantages of UN...but they are even more dependent on doubles in the mid to long term. Consider the FG v MU dev paths. Minus doubles you will likely have:

Mummy: MB, Regen, Guard, SF, Grab
FG: TS, SF, Regen, Block, Guard, MB

At this point I would say the FG is a somewhat better player, and certainly a much more reliable one, and for 10k less...but of course it does take forever to get 3 skills.

One other minor note, it is a bit easier to score with the FGs with MV4 and AG2. You still have to be in a dominant position on the pitch of course, but 75% chance of handoff with RR and 4 turns to score vs 5/9 chance on hand off even with the RR and 5 turns to score.

And the designated blitzer position is a long term weakness for the UN that is well filled by a WW. At low TV, anyone with a decent MV and access to G skills will work, but as time goes on, the lack of being able to hit hard shows.

[Smeborg]

swil - the Mummies can get 3-dice blocks, thus lack of Block on them is less troublesome than for the Golems. The Mummies skill up easily because of their starting M-Blow. Golems, like Black Orcs and similar players, skill up slowly.

Team balance makes it easier to take plentiful early Guard on the Undead. Mummies can take it as first normal skill, whereas for Golems, Block is usually taken first. It's a long way to 16 SPPs and Guard for them. It's easier for the Undead Ghouls to take Wrestle+Tackle, because there are 4 of them (1 or 2 can be developed for ball handling). This in turn makes it easier for the Undead Wights to take early Guard, leading to 4 early Guards. But Wights on the Necro team have an implied need to take early Tackle (who else is going to take it?).

The same considerations make it relatively easy for the Undead Wights to take early MBlow. Thus the team can get 4 Guard+MBlow players in short order, something I have not seen on a Necro team.

Hope that helps.

[Overhamsteren]

Sounds about right, in fumbble blackbox necromantic are all around, starting slowly doesn't hurt since you keep getting scheduled against equal team value and you get to play as many games as you like so you will get that superwolf legend if you want to.

[Cirrus the Blue]

I think Flesh Golems are altogether better than Mummies due to the fact they're immovable, have the same armor with Thick Skull, and even though they're ST4, ST5 doesn't roll 3 dice either, can also move that critical 1 square after standing up without GFI, and Block access on normal rolls. Mummies only have Mighty Blow beyond the ST5 with no Block access. Besides, who needs 4 ghouls above 2 werewolves? Necro is an amazing roster.

[mattgslater]

I've had a lot more trouble against Undead than against Necro. Flesh Golems are very good players, I will admit, and Weres are both better players and better bargains than Ghouls.

Were vs. Ghoul:

1) Were costs 50k more than a Ghoul. Oof! That's the biggest difference between these players. Drop Weres for Ghouls, and the saved 100k is a TRR and another Ghoul upgrade from a Zombie. Until the team fills its roster and its bank (or Bank, should you play with one), that's enormous.

2) Were has +MA and +AV. That's worth the 50k right there... on paper. In TV, maybe it's worth 40k. In player cost, it's a catastrophe, but that's already covered.

3) Were doesn't have Dodge. This hurts, a little. Early it hurts a lot. After you've got him Blodge, you almost forget... until he dies.

4) Were has a sweet suite of good, hard-to-get, and unreliable skills. Claw scares people and earns SPP, but goes through long stretches of irrelevance, sometimes several games. It also makes him a huge target for the scariest teams, the ones that have the easiest time baiting him into traps. Frenzy knocks guys around, eats defensive formations, pumps his Cas total, eats re-rolls, leads to a lot of turnovers, and kills a lot of doggies. Regenerate might save him from the other two skills... or not. It's a 50/50 proposition, not something on which you want to hang your Superman: you will sometimes thank your lucky stars you have it, but you can't game around it.

Mummy vs. Golem:

1) Mummy costs 10k more than the Golem. Funny enough, the optimum Golem/Were-heavy Necro roster has 20k in the bank. No harm, no foul. That's what Zombies are fore.

2) Mummy is ST5. Against bash teams, that's really important. Often you need to hit that ST4 guy straight-up, or to clear out a big guy, or whatever. Against ST3 teams, it's better than you'd think. It's sometimes very easy to prevent/discourage your opponent from getting multiple assists. Also, however hard it is, that, plus your line-blocking, is how hard it is to get 3d with a rookie Mummy, which is great against Norse and Dwarfs and such. With the Flesh Golem, you need to figure out how to keep the ClawPOMBers off him because they're only 0-2 and ST4, with no other AV9 players and a hard time getting other guys with Guard.

3) Golem has Stand Firm and Thick Skull. Stand Firm is a big deal against agility teams. Elves hate Golems. Mostly, my experience has been that Orcs just beat them up in place. They're too valuable (read: Zombies suck too much) to let them get caught outside the play, but all they do is stand up. Really good use of two ST4/AV9 Stand Firm players is frustrating even for these teams; just less so. Thick Skull is an asterisk on Stand Firm.

4) Mummy has Mighty Blow, Golem has G skill access. This is huge early on, because the team's worst problem is a lack of Guard, and Mighty Blow is a great way to fish for Guard. With the Golem, you feel so tempted to go with Block as a first skill, because a) he can, b) it earns him SPP (while Guard quietly earns SPP for the next guy), c) you start out Block-poor and TRR poor, and d) he costs so much to replace that if a Golem and a Were went down at the same time you'd lose the next game too!

EDIT:
5) Golem has +1 MA, +1 AG. +1 MA would be nice on a Mummy, but the Golem with Stand Firm gets limited use of it. +1 AG is not nearly as good as it sounds to newbies, but better than it sounds to many veterans. You can't really do much with it that's important, but if you get him to 13 SPP, you can hand-off to him and get him up to Guard.

[swilhelm73]

Were vs. Ghoul:

Don't forget Regen. It will nominally double the lifespan of a player. Of course more so with AV8 vs 7, but then again WWs are bigger foul targets.

[mattgslater]

Were vs. Ghoul:

Don't forget Regen. It will nominally double the lifespan of a player. Of course more so with AV8 vs 7, but then again WWs are bigger foul targets.

Regenerate might save him from the other two skills... or not.

That's not enough? My point was that it's a 50/50 proposition: you will sometimes thank your lucky stars you have it, but you can't game around it.

Edited appropriately: last sentence of Were vs. Ghoul Item 4 added.

[swilhelm73]

No, you certainly can't assume regen will save a player. As always you should try to minimize hits taken by WWs or Ghouls.

But that being said, it makes a big on field difference. My 32 game Necro team has had 4 WWs and now 7 Ghouls. The WWs got injured early and now have had a good run - I presume due to blodge, as you note. The Ghouls get injured regularly though when playing tackle heavy teams. And that means that over the long term there is less of a cost difference - 120 every 8 games vs 70 every 5 games and much better skill memory.

And that's ignoring getting the regen player back at the half.

[spubbbba]

3) Golem has Stand Firm and Thick Skull. Stand Firm is a big deal against agility teams. Elves hate Golems. Mostly, my experience has been that Orcs just beat them up in place. They're too valuable (read: Zombies suck too much) to let them get caught outside the play, but all they do is stand up. Really good use of two ST4/AV9 Stand Firm players is frustrating even for these teams; just less so. Thick Skull is an asterisk on Stand Firm.

I disagree, with MA4 and AG2 Golems are pretty irrelevant to elves as they can just avoid them or pin them down with some fodder. Since the golem has no damaging skills or block them he’s not that likely to hurt them either.

Golems with Block are great against bashy teams as they can really frustrate them if they can’t roll a pow. But they are way worse than mummies and I still think they should have remained at 100K.

[mattgslater]

I disagree, with MA4 and AG2 Golems are pretty irrelevant to elves as they can just avoid them or pin them down with some fodder. Since the golem has no damaging skills or block them he’s not that likely to hurt them either.

They're great for area denial. Super-Zombie. That's what they are: walking, blocking area denial. And yeah, I still maintain that they do it well. If you need them moving around a lot against elves, you're doing it wrong. But Necro have to be mobile against bash, because they don't have the muscle to get stuck in. A superior speedbump is just more expensive. Sometimes the Stand Firm makes you think, because you'd really want a push. Sometimes, not so much. But even with Guard, a Golem usually can't protect your Zombies from Orcs, and once his support withers, either he'll get hurt or more action will open up on the AG3 pieces.