Mass Shadowing

[spubbbba]

I could see it being a fun team to mess about with but is certainly not an efficient way to build a team unless you were in some sort of elfball league.

The trouble with shadowing is that almost all the models that would make most use of it tend to be on the soft side so wouldn’t want to be in opposing tackle zones anyway. Even then the key targets tend to have as high MA and if not AG4 and/or dodge so making a couple of extra dodges is rarely a serious hindrance for them.

[mattgslater]

Sadly, I can't even see it being fun.

One big problem I have with BB. Skills like that are only good if you put so much TV into them you'll guarantee a butt-whupping.

[Smeborg]

spubba and matt - I suggest you may be taking a more harsh view than is warranted by the original post. stashman puts forward the idea of 4-6 players with Shadowing. On the Necro team, these players have decent MA (6-8). Now if we assume that of the 6 fast players on this team, 1 is a Runner dedicated to ball-handling, and 1 is a rookie (through injury), that leaves 4 players who would take Shadowing, for 8 points of TV. These players also have access to positioning skills such as Sidestep or Stand Firm, which complement Shadowing well.

For my part, I think the idea has merit, and is at least worthy of experiment. On half or more of teams, the Runner/Thrower is MA6 or slower, only 1 or 2 teams have Runner/Throwers of MA8/9. Indeed relatively few teams (say 30%) have any players above MA7. So Shadowing can be deployed very effectively in most matches. Particularly effective, I would suggest, for a team such as Necros.

All the best.

[swilhelm73]

spubba and matt - I suggest you may be taking a more harsh view than is warranted by the original post. stashman puts forward the idea of 4-6 players with Shadowing. On the Necro team, these players have decent MA (6-8). Now if we assume that of the 6 fast players on this team, 1 is a Runner dedicated to ball-handling, and 1 is a rookie (through injury), that leaves 4 players who would take Shadowing, for 8 points of TV. These players also have access to positioning skills such as Sidestep or Stand Firm, which complement Shadowing well.

For my part, I think the idea has merit, and is at least worthy of experiment. On half or more of teams, the Runner/Thrower is MA6 or slower, only 1 or 2 teams have Runner/Throwers of MA8/9. Indeed relatively few teams (say 30%) have any players above MA7. So Shadowing can be deployed very effectively in most matches. Particularly effective, I would suggest, for a team such as Necros.

All the best.

Well...on a necro team, look at those 6 fast players.

2 WWs - these players are absolutely critical. I, and most Necro coaches I've played against, tend to try to keep them free to blitz targets of choice. You don't want to leave them in contact generally.

2 Ghouls - among the most fragile players in the game - no regen, no apoth, av7. Blodge helps, but facing a ghoul I'll take as many hits on them as a I can.

2 Wights - here we hit players that could be used for this purpose...but there are already so many skills they need - guard, tackle, MB, grab, SF, etc...

[Smeborg]

swil - I think we're talking about using Shadowing against ball-carriers and receivers - not against blockers or slayers.

All the best.

[stashman]

Shadowing doesn't work too well when you're on the ground. And you will be, because your opponent will have better skills than you.

It's a fun skill but I wouldn't mass it on my guys. Especially not Zombies as you say you are going to.

1st: If you have Block or Blodge and still are on the ground, well nothing can help you (wights, wolfs and ghouls). What skills will be better? Sorry I'm not with you at all

2nd: You didn't read my post...

[stashman]

I took Shadowing as a late skill on a couple of Saurii one time. It was surprisingly effective: on Dwarf Runners and Orc Throwers, etc. Though it did catch out a couple of Gutter Runners too I remember.

This gave my a thinking!!! I will have it on 1-3 saurus as maybe 3rd skill. Great!

[stashman]

Lets continue. Here is my team and after 22 games:

Helloween Horrors, TV183
Rerolls: 4
FF: 10

Werewolf: Block, Dodge, Mighty Blow (46) *Shadowing
Werewolf: ST4, Block, Dodge (42) *Shadowing

Ghoul: Block, Shadowing (24) *Side Step
Ghoul: Block, Guard (24) *Shadowing

Wight: Dodge, Leader (22) *Shadowing
Wight: Shadowing, Tackle (17) *Stand Firm

Golem: Block, Guard (16) *Shadowing
Golem: Block (12) *Guard
and 5 Zombies, one with Block, Fend, one with Dirty Player.

My last 14 games
1-1 Chaos Dwarf
2-0 Dwarf
2-1 Humans
2-1 Humans
2-1 Nurgle
2-1 Dwarf
1-1 Chaos
2-1 Necromantic
1-1 Necromantic
2-0 Khemri
2-1 Khemri
2-1 Necromantic
1-0 Undead
2-0 Chaos Dwarf

I play my necromantic just like Smeborg says:

"They are a sniping and skirmishing team, they excel in scrambled play, and they are past masters at achieving local superiority where needed."

So true Smeborg, so true!!!

You can't outbash your opponent as a necro player, never!!! I would never ever waste a wight toy have guard as the first skill, because you waste him (tied up to guard somewhere) and you forget that he is one of your 6 ball handling players.

Shadowing is not just to "follow the player that dodges away", it's about using it in your opponents blocking phase!

My last game vs. Chaos Dwarf. I have the ball with my ST4 Blodging werewolf. Opponent send his bullcentaur to give assist to a ST4 chaos dwarf. The dawrf has a wight in his tacklezone, the wight has a minotaur in his tacklezone and the minotaur have a shadowing ghoul in his tacklezone. Opponent forgets about shadowing and tries to push away the wight from the dwarf with his minotaur to get the dwarf free for a 2 dice block against my werewolf. I "shadow" the mino with ghoul and keep the dwarf i check! No free blitzing from dwarf!

It's to be used to "fock up" the opponents blocking plans. Keep shadowing your way out of harm. And it's a bonus that you can shadow a player that just dodges away

Use it to follow up a block, to help you in the next. With side step this will be awesome, once I have side step on the ghouls, and maybe wolfs (if I don't roll some +ST, +AG).

There is soo much to be used with shadowing, and I know that all you that play the oldschool guard, block, tackle skills will never ever learn anything new in this game, and thats true.

There will be two more games for my team before playoffs, one against amazons and one against (pro) elfs. My last three games is in the league, 2-1 Necromantic, 1-0 Undead and 2-0 Chaos Dwarf and I'm 9 points leading the division with 5-1 TDs and 8-4 casualties.I will keep posting how it will go for my team.

[Smeborg]

stashman - thanks for the full explanation. I'm interested to see how you get on against the Elves especially.

I love the Golem with Shadowing - does he get to use it often?

[stashman]

stashman - thanks for the full explanation. I'm interested to see how you get on against the Elves especially.

I love the Golem with Shadowing - does he get to use it often?

The skills with the * in front of it is to be next! And I think I will be using it some times, but not always. But never underestimate MA4. Against other MA4 (dwarfs, black orcs) it's a 8+ to get away from him in the blocking phase. And on a MA6, it's still a chance, opponent has to roll 6+. So I think he will mostly be after slower blocking guys

I will take shadowing, if I don't roll anything better like +ST, Doubles roll or +AV. He can take mighty blow or grab, but I will make this team "The Shadows"

[Smeborg]

stashman - I see an analogy with the way I develop stymie Nurgle. I give every player either Stand Firm or Fend as second normal skill. Thus on a fully developed team (with the exception of J-Naut Blitzes), opposing players can never follow up a block, nor use a block to escape from Tentacles.

The way you develop the Necro team with Shadowing has an authentic and viable look to it. Shadowing works on its own, so give it as an early/middle skill, then allow it to improve with the addition of other skills.

I look forward to further reports on your progress.

[spubbbba]

I don’t think I was being particularly harsh, just honest. But I would say that Shadowing on a Golem is a terrible choice, if someone suggested that as a 3rd choice in a normal “what skills should I take” thread I’d assume they were joking.

I said basing a team round shadowing could be fun, but it would not be as effective as other skills. You might catch your opponent out on occasion, but the others skills you could have picked would be used more.

The team listed looks to be right at the point where Necros really start to struggle and I strongly disagree with not taking guard on a wight. Wights have so many good skills to pick from that you really can’t waste shadowing on an MA6 player. Back in LRB4 when they only had general access shadowing was still low down on the skill picks and if it got to that stage it was better to fire and replace them in the hope of doubles or stats.

The wolves would be much better taking tackle, sidestep or even diving tackle, the same could be said for the ghouls with the option of sure hands on one of them.

Necros are a hybrid team so by neglecting the bashing part of the team you right being out manoeuvred and even out bashed by agile teams. A blodge heavy high or dark elf team with a couple of doubles for guard and MB could quite easily out bash your team since you lack tackle.

[stashman]

We play in Divisions. Rookie for new teams, Minor max TV139, Major TV179, Super TV219, SuperDuper TV259, Legend over TV260. Then we have the Fury Cup any team and Champions League where only winners from last season can play in.

So you don't meet bashy elf teams in Major.

And I know all have there opinions, BUT as I can read NO ONE here has every tried it out, and can ONLY GUESS that it will be less effective than taking other skills. BUT I will prove you are wrong

I will post all games here and you will see how it works.

[Hitonagashi]

We play in Divisions. Rookie for new teams, Minor max TV139, Major TV179, Super TV219, SuperDuper TV259, Legend over TV260. Then we have the Fury Cup any team and Champions League where only winners from last season can play in.

So you don't meet bashy elf teams in Major.

And I know all have there opinions, BUT as I can read NO ONE here has every tried it out, and can ONLY GUESS that it will be less effective than taking other skills. BUT I will prove you are wrong

I will post all games here and you will see how it works.

I've never tried taking Multiple Block on a snotling either

It's worth an experiment. My only major change is to agree with Spubbba about shadowing on a golem. How many movement 4 players dodge away from a FG? In my experience, the MV 4 ones are the ones that just punch it! I'd take tackle or something instead, and preferably one that helps you lock down the positioning. How does fend work on a FG? (stand firm the -2ds, keep away from the people who are killered up)

[Corvidius]

We play in Divisions. Rookie for new teams, Minor max TV139, Major TV179, Super TV219, SuperDuper TV259, Legend over TV260. Then we have the Fury Cup any team and Champions League where only winners from last season can play in.

So you don't meet bashy elf teams in Major.

And I know all have there opinions, BUT as I can read NO ONE here has every tried it out, and can ONLY GUESS that it will be less effective than taking other skills. BUT I will prove you are wrong

I will post all games here and you will see how it works.

I've never tried taking Multiple Block on a snotling either

It's worth an experiment. My only major change is to agree with Spubbba about shadowing on a golem. How many movement 4 players dodge away from a FG? In my experience, the MV 4 ones are the ones that just punch it! I'd take tackle or something instead, and preferably one that helps you lock down the positioning. How does fend work on a FG? (stand firm the -2ds, keep away from the people who are killered up)

It's an odd, innovative idea but it's actually a rather sneaky positioning ploy. Not a tactic i think you can rely on but one that will mess up a bash teams plans.