Big guys now 'compulsory'?

[Smurf]

With WE I don't use a Treeman. Not my style. Seen it once in a tournee, Hawca (i think he is on these boards) took a treeman. Not sure if he was impressed, there is a method to it but IMO WE play is fast.

I think now and then he will prove his worth by crunching up the line. But it maybe a long time waiting.

Just imagine a MA4 treeman!

[mattgslater]

A Treeman with Grab and Guard is a game-changer. They're not necessary, but all they do is eat space!

[RogueThirteen]

The main purpose of a Treeman on WE is to only present two elves for them to hit on the LOS. Trouble is, he's generally useless on offense after the first turn or two. It's a reasonable choice but takes a lot of TV. It's definitely one of the most "optional" of the Big Guys.

[ulvardar]

As a skaven player i have to say rat ogre is mandatory after apothecary. Really hard to open holes and tie enemy players without it. I would move it to 'take it, if not inmediatly' but it's just my point of view.

[Darkson]

I was kicking about in some older threads, and saw one complaining that because of Clawpomp Big Guys were useless now, and a waste of money.

So we have two camps with opposite views, and a third where BGs are fine - guess that means the balance is spot-on.

[dines]

Guess it depends on where you play and how risk adverse you are.

Big guys in a TV matched environment full of clawpomb is not as good as in a short league.

Some big guys require you to blitz with them to get most out of them (mino, RO) and thats too big a risk for me, I'd rather have a passive guy soaking up hits and tying up opponents (troll, beast, krox).

[mattgslater]

As a skaven player i have to say rat ogre is mandatory after apothecary. Really hard to open holes and tie enemy players without it. I would move it to 'take it, if not inmediatly' but it's just my point of view.

That's how I see Human Ogres, but the utility of Gutter Runners, and the suckiness of Wild Animal, make them feel less de rigeur. There are three Skaven teams in my home-league, and the most successful one doesn't take a Rat Ogre. One good argument against him is that Skaven are awesome 'dogs. They get the best possible advantage out of everything you'd induce, especially Babes and Wizards! And then there are Fezglitch (far and away the best SW star available to a competitive team) and Glart (the cheapest of the ST4 blitzers, not counting Zzharg). For the price of a RO, I could have a Lino and Fezglitch, or a Lino and two Babes, or a hole in the roster filled by a Wizard, who only works once per game, but when I need him he's probably there, and he won't waste actions or turn me over in the meantime.

Some big guys require you to blitz with them to get most out of them (mino, RO) and thats too big a risk for me, I'd rather have a passive guy soaking up hits and tying up opponents (troll, beast, krox).

This is what I'm seeing. Like, the best thing about the Rat Ogre is Prehensile Tail.

Also, not all big guys are created equal. A Beast of Nurgle is a Troll with three doubles skills, a fair second double choice among them (for the Beast, impossible for the Troll), for 30k. Kroxigors are awesome, better players (significantly) than Rat Ogres, Ogres, or Minotaurs, for the same or less money. Chaos Minotaurs and Warpstone Trolls are objectively superior to their counterparts (vastly superior, in long formats... barring multiple wacky rolls) for the same cost.

Not complaining. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Orcs are a better team than Underworld or Slann, even though their Big Guy is not as good. Chaos Dwarfs are perfectly competitive with or without their inferior Minotaur, as are Chaos with or without their superior one.

[phil78]

I've just dumped the Rat Ogre from my favourite skaven team as he was just standing around doing nothing. My gutters/SVs are better blitzers and I'd rather have 3 linos as meat bags for the los than a fragile big guy doing nothing helpful

[TalonBay]

I think Matt has the Rat Ogre spot on, the skaven are so much better off using almost anything else (inducements or players) but I insist on using him regardless as part of the flavour of the team. He's poor though, I'm basically giving my opponents a wizard at least for a very flaky player. Before I played the team I thought the "pure" version sans big guy would be weaker but now I've played them for a while I just don't see it. I'd much rather have the Krox, he would be worth taking!

BTW my dark elves always have assassins for similar reasons.

[Juriel]

Rat Ogre would be a great addition to Skaven, if it did not cost more than any other big guy. As is, it's pointless TV clutter you can use much wiser.

[Chris]

So the worse the team the more you need the big guy
So stunties of course. Underworld. Then Humans

[Oly1987]

I personally always have an ogre on my human team and feel lost without it. Gives humans an extra bit of punch which is something they need. Still doesn't stop them sucking at higher tv but hey you take what you can get