Worst. Advice. Ever.

[Viajero]

Yup. I was also never comparing it to no skill at all. Quite the contrary actually is the main point of my post.

[Nikolai II]

[...]I'm kind of passy. In 40 games on FUMBBL, I've thrown an average of 2 comps per match, which is outrageously high for a coach with a winning record, and I've allowed about 1.25 comps per match (pretty average for a coach with a winning record), and in that time I've thrown no picks and allowed no picks. It's just really, really rare, and PB doesn't improve the odds much. Ints are often gamebreaker plays, but it's not worth investing an early/middle skill in getting more of them, because you'd need to multiply your odds tenfold or more before it's worthwhile.

17 games, 10-2-5 on TT, which I consider a fair shake.

65 completions. Almost 4 per game. That is what I consider "kind of passy"

One intercept against. (Desperation game against orcs where I failed to realize he'd set me up to pass across his unmarked AG 5 Blitzer)

25 completions against. Almost 1.5, which is pretty close to your 1.25, so no complaints there.
(Would have been lower, but the last three games I played my opponents got a total of 11 completions, so before that it was 14 completions during 14 games = 1 given per game. Many of those "odd turn out" farming completions).

I think I'm in with the "Pass Block can be a sensible late skill on some players", but I see it much like grab - as is a good skill that stops being valuable enough to pick again once you have it on one or two players.

Still, it is nice that this game is open enough that people can have differing opinions about what makes a good team.

[Dr. Von Richten]

It's the same as Divine Catch. Sure, it adds +1 to catches, and you can catch scattered passes. That's awesome right? Just makes your catcher better! ...except, you aren't comparing Divine Catch to no Divine Catch, you are comparing it to block/dodge/sidestep/diving tackle/tackle/frenzy and all those other skills that boost the player *more*.

I think Divine Catch would be great! Hand of God, anyone?

[spubbbba]

Well I had a look at the stats for the top coaches on FUMBBL and the average seems to be about 1.5 completions per game, those who elfball a lot are higher (more than 3) and those who bashball a lot are lower (less than 1).

Now for passblock to be of any use you need the following to happen.

1. Your opponent has to pass the ball. Plenty of bash teams won't do this all game, heck even with the hybrid or elf teams it is not that common an occurrence. So from those stats good players pass once or twice a game on average, if you have an elf heavy league more, if elf light less.
2. Your player with passblock needs to be within 3 squares of the pass corridor. It is hard to tell how many passes are safe spp farming but i'd say a significant proportion will be when there are no opposing players anywhere near the thrower or receiver in case of a fumble/missed catch. Your passblock player also would need to be on the pitch, another skill such as block, dodge, fend or sidestep might have given him a better chance of doing that and within range. He'd also need to be close enough to use the skill, the main passers are elf teams and they have the advantage that any of them make great receivers but even AG3 is reasonably good at catching and AG2 will work 75% of the time with a re-roll. So the other team may well be able to safely pass well away from your passblockers.
3. Your passblock player has to get within the 3 squares and actually make a difference. The player may well be in tackle zones or have his route blocked so may have to make quite a few dice rolls to get into the required area. Even if he does make it he still has to do something, either make an interception or force the pass/catch to fail. To intercept there is a -2 penalty so anyone with AG3 or less will need a 6 and even elves need a 5, catch will double your chances but there are only a few players who have a reasonable chance or succeeding. If you just manage to get the extra tackle zone then that will only lower your opponents chances by 17%, though you may also force the receiver to dodge. Of course there are skills like safe throw and nerves of steel which can counter this as well.

So if those 3 factors above happen then passblock will have been useful, how often will that happen?

Now let's look at the skills you could take instead of passblock. Block, Dauntless, Dirty Player, Fend, Frenzy, Kick, Kick Off return, Pro, Shadowing, Strip Ball, Sure hands, Tackle and Wrestle.

I'd say almost all of those will be used more than passblock, some you'd only want 1 or 2 of such as dirty player, kick, kick off return, strip ball and sure hands. Others are about the same such as shadowing and pro, useful on occasion but probably not worth the TV.

In the lrb5/crp ruleset you really can't afford to waste TV on sub-par skills, taking a weak skill is worse than having nothing as with the inducement system you will risk giving away or losing out on inducements.

[Hitonagashi]

It's the same as Divine Catch. Sure, it adds +1 to catches, and you can catch scattered passes. That's awesome right? Just makes your catcher better! ...except, you aren't comparing Divine Catch to no Divine Catch, you are comparing it to block/dodge/sidestep/diving tackle/tackle/frenzy and all those other skills that boost the player *more*.

I think Divine Catch would be great! Hand of God, anyone?

Deliberate . Comes from LRB 4...

I guess what me and Spubbba are trying to say is that for most of the FUMBBL coaches (which to be honest, is where 99% of my experience is), that passing isn't a viable option. I would say most throwers I see have block dodge and leader, and their sole role is that cheap RR.

With the teams that do pass with skilled throwers, it's almost exclusively a pass from when the ball lands deep in the backfield to a catcher waiting near the front on turn 1...where you can position to avoid the pass blocker. It doesn't 'cut any of our strategic options' off, because even with elves, we never consider passing in the first place! It's a lot better for clock control to run it.

I fancy myself as a passing elf coach (my thrower has 186 completions in 80 games), and I think I've been intercepted twice, both when making emergency clearance passes on defense. I never pass over players where I can avoid it (even with safe throw), and if the opponent have things like Slann, I just pass to my catcher before I run the ball with him.

It doesn't give us any headaches because we almost never consider a pass into enemy territory.

There are situations where I might consider pass block (skill 5/6 usually), as it's useful to stop emergency passes when your offense goes horribly wrong and they are trying to clear the ball after turning you over, but I'd never take it early.

[danton]

Well, I am mostly a dark elf coach and I generally run the ball too, but I like having a runner with Pass and Accurate to give me the passing option if I need it. If your team only runs, then that also makes you more predictable to the opponent. Being able to peel one or two receivers away from your screen spreads the field and gives you an option when your running game runs aground. Also, there will be times when you only have two turns to score from a kick-off and a pass might be the only way to achieve that if the opponent covers your hand-off options well.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Pass Block is not a high priority skill. I just believe it has more value than the vast majority of coaches give to it. Citing a whole list of reasons explaining why it would hardly ever get used like Spubbba does is also completely missing the point of what has been said before in this thread. The TV value of a skill is not only related to the amount of times the skill is actively used on the field, but also on its passive influence, which is generally a lot more intangible and harder to quantify.

[Hitonagashi]

For elves, if you have to 2 turn, you can always overload a side. There's no need to resort to a "shotgun" offence. Without being Pro Elves, (and therefore having NoS on all your receivers), it's usually more reliable to smash a hole, pour most of the team through it. The pass here can be done before or after the pouring through.

I guess we'll have to agree that we disagree. I don't see even an intangible benefit in most cases, because that would imply my opponents considered passing a viable strategy. For a data-point, before I started with my HE passer, the top all time passer in the blackbox history had..80 passes. The second place had 40. That's over all players in all teams...

[Smurf]

Considering I have 2 Pass Blockers for WE in defence I don't see what the problem is. It give my opponent a headache of trying to get around them. The last time it was used, it was against orcs who wanted to equalise in the last turn. The coach ummed about smacking the pass blocker and get a push back into his receiver (making a catch harder and also a dodge) or just lob it an leg it, he chose the latter, the PBer moved and intercepted taking the score to a 4-2.

I don't see the problem of having to Pass Blockers.

[Viajero]

Considering I have 2 Pass Blockers for WE in defence I don't see what the problem is. It give my opponent a headache of trying to get around them. The last time it was used, it was against orcs who wanted to equalise in the last turn. The coach ummed about smacking the pass blocker and get a push back into his receiver (making a catch harder and also a dodge) or just lob it an leg it, he chose the latter, the PBer moved and intercepted taking the score to a 4-2.

I don't see the problem of having to Pass Blockers.

Me neither, but it would seem that we are a minority here I am sure your example will be derated as anecdotal and unsupported evidence in no time. In 3, 2, 1...

Although in truth no one sees a problem with it really. The issue is when to take it if at all. The majority seem to think it is only worth as a 5th or 6th skill.

I would have an issue if Pass Block was considered for all your pieces, like any other mainstream blocking or agility skill. But having it in just 1 or 2 pieces early on (i.e. as early as 3rd skill) may perfectly yield the same value long term both tangible (as in your example) or intangible (by forcing your opponent to do things he would not normally do to avoid it) than having, say, Sidestep or Fend in that piece. Remember we are talking just 1 or 2, not the whole team. One needs to look at Pass Block as one of those skills you typically take in just one or two of your pieces only, say, Kick, KOR, Dirty Plater, Sneaky Git, etc. I mean, would your Lineman be better as an individual with Sidestep or Dodge instead of Dirty Player. Most likely. Still, many agility coaches make sure they have at least one DP player in their ranks because it may give you a different kind of advantage situationally than Sidestep or Dodge would (obvious fouling, deterring PO...).

[danton]

For elves, if you have to 2 turn, you can always overload a side. There's no need to resort to a "shotgun" offence. Without being Pro Elves, (and therefore having NoS on all your receivers), it's usually more reliable to smash a hole, pour most of the team through it. The pass here can be done before or after the pouring through.

Often easier said than done though, especially against a bash team with a strong LOS holding the middle and four columns holding the flanks! Also Overloading one side leaves you much more open to kick-off events and kicks to your weak side. It can of course work, but having a good thrower can help for those situations where things don't quite go as planned.

I guess we'll have to agree that we disagree. I don't see even an intangible benefit in most cases, because that would imply my opponents considered passing a viable strategy. For a data-point, before I started with my HE passer, the top all time passer in the blackbox history had..80 passes. The second place had 40. That's over all players in all teams...

Of course we can disagree! I think that one of the things that make this such a good game is the diversity involved and the fact that there is often more than one way to approach a situation. If there was only one good way to play the game then it would become very boring very quickly! Also, the passing game is usually a secondary strategy for most teams, for when the run fails, or for when time left on the clock makes it the only way to score. Having a contingency plan for that secondary option has an intangible benefit. Some teams / coaches do pass as their primary offense too - they are in the minority, but they do exist.

[Hitonagashi]

Aye, I agree with you there Danton.

I didn't say I wouldn't have a thrower...just I wouldn't pass in open play! . A thrower is wonderful for those circumstances you mentioned, but the key thing for me is that it's your offence, so you can set up to avoid a pass blocker.

I can see PB being used on defence (heck, I pass as elves then), but I'm firm in my opinion that I use Sidestep, Block,Dodge, Diving Tackle far more . I guess in my style of play, I find it too easy to stop a pass blocker from being useful against me, compared to a sidestepper marking my cage.

As Viajero says, there's no problem with Pass Block per se...it's no LRB 4 diving catch ...but I still wouldn't take it till very late on.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Worst advice is all the people on here recommending anyone takes Kick Off Return. Someone even recommended it for a Bull Centaur!

[the.tok]

Worst advice is all the people on here recommending anyone takes Kick Off Return. Someone even recommended it for a Bull Centaur!

Kick off return is a very good skill, but I do agree it is not for bull centaurs

The worst advice giver of all time is the guy that implemented the skill selection for Cyanide's AI teams.
I mean, come on, there is not even one decent pick...
Double on a linelf?
thickskull

double skill on a treeman?
diving tackle (great combo, he'll be able to pick pile on later )...
not ever seen him pick block

I'm sure they didn't even try. Or they never ever played BB. It is not like they couldn't put a skill selection tree. Don't know if legendary edition improved this, but each time I looked at the opposing team roster I was shocked by all this wasted TV

At least, there was much skill variety

[garion]

Worst advice is all the people on here recommending anyone takes Kick Off Return. Someone even recommended it for a Bull Centaur!

Yeah that is some smelly advice, if you read the whole playbook is gets worse as well, tentacles on Chaos Dwarves is apparently a great double????

It really makes you wonder sometimes.