Since we were discussing the topic, these are the rules we've been using when playing.
The following is part one, and is a summary of the "official" 3rd edition DB rules as they were published in White Dwarf. If anyone sees any errors I have made, please let me know.
PART ONE: DUNGEONBOWL CORE RULES SUMMARY
Dungeonbowl is played using the same basic core rules as Blood Bowl. The core rules that are specific to Dungeonbowl alone are summarised below, and any rules not addressed below function identically to those in the BB rulebook.
Pre-Game Setup
Set up the dungeon in any mutually agreeable fashion. It must contain one end zone per team, placed as far apart as possible, and six chests and six teleporters. Both chests and teleporters must be placed at least four squares from another counter of the same type.
When starting the game, each coach may set up six players in their own end zone. Do not roll on the Kick-Off Table when starting the game. Also note that it is not necessary to keep track of turns in Dungeonbowl, as there is no turn limit on the game and play continues until a touchdown is scored.
Playing the Game
Chests: The aim of the game is to open the chests, find the one with the ball, and score by carrying the ball into an opposing team's end zone. Any adjacent player may open a chest at the cost of one square of movement. If the chest does not contain the ball, it explodes, and all adjacent players are knocked down. After a chest is opened, it is removed (and the non-exploding chest is replaced with the ball). An unopened chest counts as a square occupied by a prone player for all purposes.
Teleporters: Teleportation happens automatically as soon as a player steps (or is pushed) onto a teleporter, after which they are instantly moved to one of the other teleporters as indicated by a dice roll. If the player rolls the number of the teleporter they are already on, they are lost in space and removed for the rest of the game. If they teleport onto a teleporter that already contains another player, that player is instantly re-teleported, and this chain must continue until all teleporting players have either landed on an unoccupied teleporter or are lost in space. If a player tries to teleport more than once during the same action, the player is automatically injured (a Stunned result places him back in the Reserves box). The ball is never affected by the teleporters, but if a player moves onto a teleporter that also contains the ball, the ball teleports with him and he must roll to pick it up after arriving at his new destination. Once per turn, a coach may activate one of his reserve players from the dug-out and teleport them into the dungeon and onto a randomly chosen teleporter.
Passing: The ball may not be thrown to more than short pass range in the dungeon, and obviously the ball may not be thrown through walls. Balls may be bounced off walls, but as this is a desparate and little-used tactic it will not be explained here.
Other Rules
Magic Sponge: All Dungeonbowl teams have a magic sponge for free, which is a magic item that can be used once every game to move a player that has been KO'd into the reserves box instead.
Since there is no kick-off in Dungeonbowl, coaching staff such as assistant coaches and cheerleaders are not used.
Dungeonbowl Project
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yggdrasil
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
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yggdrasil
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
Here is part two, covering the various house rules that we use.
PART TWO: DUNGEONBOWL OPTIONAL HOUSE RULES
The following set of rules are not found in the official Dungeonbowl rules, but may be implemented in any games and leagues subject to the will of the players or commissioner in order to make the game more interesting.
Pre-Game Setup
Pit Traps: Pit traps are an optional addition that may be used if both players agree. When playing a game using pit traps, each coach gets three pit trap counters to place after the coin toss but before setting up players. The coach who won the coin toss must place one counter first, and each coach then takes turns placing the remaining counters. The trap counters should have identical backs and be placed face down on the pitch. The front of two of the traps should show a normal pit trap, and the front of one of the counters should show a spiked pit trap. When placing the counters, the coach should put them down secretly so the opposing coach does not know which counter is the spiked pit trap. Each counter may be placed anywhere except within three squares of another pit trap counter.
If a player moves onto a pit trap counter for any reason during the game, the player falls into the pit. If the counter was face down, it is turned over to reveal what type of pit it represents. If a player falls into a normal pit, he is placed prone and must make an armour roll to avoid injury. Getting out of the pit requires a full Move activation, and the player must make an AG +1 roll to successfully escape. Each friendly player who is adjacent to the pit and not in an opponent’s tackle zone adds +1 to this roll. If the roll fails, the activation is wasted and the player must remain in the pit. If the roll succeeds, the player may be placed in any adjacent square that isn’t already occupied by another player. Spiked pit traps are treated in exactly the same way as above, except that the armour roll after falling into the pit is made with a +3 modifier.
The ball can never land on a pit trap counter, whether revealed or unrevealed, and all pits are treated like prone players for all purposes of scattering the ball.
Spiked Balls: Spiked balls are made of wood instead of pigskin, and are covered in cruel metal spikes. Like pit traps, they are an optional addition if both players agree. When playing with a spiked ball, all passes have the range band increased by one. Also, any player who is occupying the square in which a ball lands after it has been passed, or who makes a successful interception, must immediately make an AG roll. If the ball was an accurate pass made by a friendly player, the roll has a +1 modifier, and if it was an accurate pass made by an opposing player, the roll has a -1 modifier. If the AG roll fails, the player must make an armour roll to avoid injury. If the AG or armour roll is passed, the player may roll to catch the ball normally.
Furthermore, when a player carrying a spiked ball knocks down an opposing player with a block, the player may add +1 to either the armour or injury roll for the knocked down player (which is cumulative with both Mighty Blow and the smashing into walls bonus described below).
Lava Squares: When setting up the dungeon, the players may choose to use tiles where some of the squares are lava squares. Lava squares can be treated in one of two ways, either as hot lava squares or smoldering lava squares. If a player is moved onto a hot lava square, he is automatically removed from the game as though he was lost in space. If a player is moved onto a smoldering lava square, he must make an armour roll to avoid injury. No roll needs to be made for either moving from such a square, or starting or ending your movement on one.
Playing the Game
Blocking: Players cannot be pushed off the sidelines in a dungeon, but when a player is both knocked down and pushed back directly into a wall, the blocking player may add +1 to either the armour or injury roll (just like Mighty Blow, but cumulative with that skill).
Leaping: Playing in a dungeon sometimes requires players to hurl themselves through the air to clear an obstacle, pit or blocked passage. However, the main design-related conflict between the original Dungeonbowl rules and the third edition Blood Bowl rules is that BB 3rd ed has a skill called Leap, which the Dungeonbowl rules are out of synch with. Therefore, it is suggested to use the following rules for leaping.
The skill Leap functions as described in the BB rulebook. (Quick summary: The player may move himself directly over a single square in order to land on the other side, at the cost of two points of movement. To land on his feet, he needs to make an AG roll, unmodified by tackle zones. If the roll is failed, he is knocked over in the leapt-to square, resulting in a turnover.) However, in Dungeonbowl (and regular Blood Bowl if you wish), all players now have the option to try and make this kind of leap, but without possessing the skill, they simply aren't very good at it.
To represent this, all players may use the Leap skill, but unless they actually have the skill, they receive a -1 penalty to the AG roll. If the player wishes to leap across more than one square, he may do so, but suffers an additional -1 for each extra square and must use an additional point of movement per square. A player may not leap more total squares than their AG score. When a player leaps without having the skill and fails, they fall over in the square they are leaping *from*, not that they are leaping to.
Fundamentally this means that leaping is turned into a special type of movement that any player can make during their action, and in turn, the Leap skill is changed into negating the first -1 to the AG roll to successfully leap, and granting the ability to land in the target square even if they fail the roll.
Other Rules
Apothecaries: If you miss apothecaries in your games, you may wish to allow them, but functioning differently than normal due to the presence of the magic sponge. If the team has an apothecary, whenever the magic sponge is used, roll a D6. If the roll is a 4+, the sponge is not exhausted and can be used again later in the game. Continue making this roll whenever the sponge is used until the roll is failed.
Secret Weapons: Because Dungeonbowl only has one drive, the rules for penalty rolls for using secret weapons in regular Blood Bowl cannot easily be used. To mitigate this, we imagine that the Dungeonbowl refs are more vigilant about actually removing secret weapons directly from play. To represent this, whenever a secret weapon player either inflicts a casualty with their weapon or causes a turnover for their team for any reason, this counts as them making a foul and the player is sent off on a roll of 6+/4+ as well as attracting the Eye of the ref.
SPP: Because Dungeonbowl is only played to a single touchdown, this reduces the average amount of SPPs awarded to players compared to normal Blood Bowl. To remedy this, you may wish to grant 2 SPP's to the player that opens the chest containing the ball, and 1 SPP to a player that successfully pushes an opposing player into a pit, teleporter or other special square with a specific associated effect.
Magical Monsters
As an optional rule, you may decide that when opening a chest, if the chest would explode, you roll a D6. On a roll of a 6 (or a 5 or 6 if you prefer), instead of the chest exploding, it is replaced by a magical monster. Determine the type of monster that appears in any random fashion depending on what monsters you have available, see example monsters below.
A monster always acts at the end of the team's turn whose player opened the chest. Whatever the results, this action always counts as a Blitz action. A prone monster will stand up and end its activation. A standing monster will move its full movement towards the nearest player. If it reaches the player, it will block them with any remaining squares of movement, or foul them if they are prone. Monsters always follow up after pushbacks. If a monster has a negative trait such as Bone-Head, roll for this normally before the monster moves and apply the normal effects.
Monsters always count as opposing players for the purpose of player interaction, except that monsters never receive either offensive or defensive assists. If a monster is ever injured, do not roll on the injury table, but instead remove it permanently from the dungeon.
Suggested Monsters: (roll a D6 to pick one)
1. Ogre, 2. Troll, 3. Minotaur, 4. Mummy, 5. Flesh Golem, 6. Vampire.
You may also wish to use more exotic monsters like manticores or cockatrices that don't exist on normal BB teams, but as these can take up a lot of space in the dungeon it is a bit too complicated to suggest quick rules for them here.
Comments and suggestions welcome.
PART TWO: DUNGEONBOWL OPTIONAL HOUSE RULES
The following set of rules are not found in the official Dungeonbowl rules, but may be implemented in any games and leagues subject to the will of the players or commissioner in order to make the game more interesting.
Pre-Game Setup
Pit Traps: Pit traps are an optional addition that may be used if both players agree. When playing a game using pit traps, each coach gets three pit trap counters to place after the coin toss but before setting up players. The coach who won the coin toss must place one counter first, and each coach then takes turns placing the remaining counters. The trap counters should have identical backs and be placed face down on the pitch. The front of two of the traps should show a normal pit trap, and the front of one of the counters should show a spiked pit trap. When placing the counters, the coach should put them down secretly so the opposing coach does not know which counter is the spiked pit trap. Each counter may be placed anywhere except within three squares of another pit trap counter.
If a player moves onto a pit trap counter for any reason during the game, the player falls into the pit. If the counter was face down, it is turned over to reveal what type of pit it represents. If a player falls into a normal pit, he is placed prone and must make an armour roll to avoid injury. Getting out of the pit requires a full Move activation, and the player must make an AG +1 roll to successfully escape. Each friendly player who is adjacent to the pit and not in an opponent’s tackle zone adds +1 to this roll. If the roll fails, the activation is wasted and the player must remain in the pit. If the roll succeeds, the player may be placed in any adjacent square that isn’t already occupied by another player. Spiked pit traps are treated in exactly the same way as above, except that the armour roll after falling into the pit is made with a +3 modifier.
The ball can never land on a pit trap counter, whether revealed or unrevealed, and all pits are treated like prone players for all purposes of scattering the ball.
Spiked Balls: Spiked balls are made of wood instead of pigskin, and are covered in cruel metal spikes. Like pit traps, they are an optional addition if both players agree. When playing with a spiked ball, all passes have the range band increased by one. Also, any player who is occupying the square in which a ball lands after it has been passed, or who makes a successful interception, must immediately make an AG roll. If the ball was an accurate pass made by a friendly player, the roll has a +1 modifier, and if it was an accurate pass made by an opposing player, the roll has a -1 modifier. If the AG roll fails, the player must make an armour roll to avoid injury. If the AG or armour roll is passed, the player may roll to catch the ball normally.
Furthermore, when a player carrying a spiked ball knocks down an opposing player with a block, the player may add +1 to either the armour or injury roll for the knocked down player (which is cumulative with both Mighty Blow and the smashing into walls bonus described below).
Lava Squares: When setting up the dungeon, the players may choose to use tiles where some of the squares are lava squares. Lava squares can be treated in one of two ways, either as hot lava squares or smoldering lava squares. If a player is moved onto a hot lava square, he is automatically removed from the game as though he was lost in space. If a player is moved onto a smoldering lava square, he must make an armour roll to avoid injury. No roll needs to be made for either moving from such a square, or starting or ending your movement on one.
Playing the Game
Blocking: Players cannot be pushed off the sidelines in a dungeon, but when a player is both knocked down and pushed back directly into a wall, the blocking player may add +1 to either the armour or injury roll (just like Mighty Blow, but cumulative with that skill).
Leaping: Playing in a dungeon sometimes requires players to hurl themselves through the air to clear an obstacle, pit or blocked passage. However, the main design-related conflict between the original Dungeonbowl rules and the third edition Blood Bowl rules is that BB 3rd ed has a skill called Leap, which the Dungeonbowl rules are out of synch with. Therefore, it is suggested to use the following rules for leaping.
The skill Leap functions as described in the BB rulebook. (Quick summary: The player may move himself directly over a single square in order to land on the other side, at the cost of two points of movement. To land on his feet, he needs to make an AG roll, unmodified by tackle zones. If the roll is failed, he is knocked over in the leapt-to square, resulting in a turnover.) However, in Dungeonbowl (and regular Blood Bowl if you wish), all players now have the option to try and make this kind of leap, but without possessing the skill, they simply aren't very good at it.
To represent this, all players may use the Leap skill, but unless they actually have the skill, they receive a -1 penalty to the AG roll. If the player wishes to leap across more than one square, he may do so, but suffers an additional -1 for each extra square and must use an additional point of movement per square. A player may not leap more total squares than their AG score. When a player leaps without having the skill and fails, they fall over in the square they are leaping *from*, not that they are leaping to.
Fundamentally this means that leaping is turned into a special type of movement that any player can make during their action, and in turn, the Leap skill is changed into negating the first -1 to the AG roll to successfully leap, and granting the ability to land in the target square even if they fail the roll.
Other Rules
Apothecaries: If you miss apothecaries in your games, you may wish to allow them, but functioning differently than normal due to the presence of the magic sponge. If the team has an apothecary, whenever the magic sponge is used, roll a D6. If the roll is a 4+, the sponge is not exhausted and can be used again later in the game. Continue making this roll whenever the sponge is used until the roll is failed.
Secret Weapons: Because Dungeonbowl only has one drive, the rules for penalty rolls for using secret weapons in regular Blood Bowl cannot easily be used. To mitigate this, we imagine that the Dungeonbowl refs are more vigilant about actually removing secret weapons directly from play. To represent this, whenever a secret weapon player either inflicts a casualty with their weapon or causes a turnover for their team for any reason, this counts as them making a foul and the player is sent off on a roll of 6+/4+ as well as attracting the Eye of the ref.
SPP: Because Dungeonbowl is only played to a single touchdown, this reduces the average amount of SPPs awarded to players compared to normal Blood Bowl. To remedy this, you may wish to grant 2 SPP's to the player that opens the chest containing the ball, and 1 SPP to a player that successfully pushes an opposing player into a pit, teleporter or other special square with a specific associated effect.
Magical Monsters
As an optional rule, you may decide that when opening a chest, if the chest would explode, you roll a D6. On a roll of a 6 (or a 5 or 6 if you prefer), instead of the chest exploding, it is replaced by a magical monster. Determine the type of monster that appears in any random fashion depending on what monsters you have available, see example monsters below.
A monster always acts at the end of the team's turn whose player opened the chest. Whatever the results, this action always counts as a Blitz action. A prone monster will stand up and end its activation. A standing monster will move its full movement towards the nearest player. If it reaches the player, it will block them with any remaining squares of movement, or foul them if they are prone. Monsters always follow up after pushbacks. If a monster has a negative trait such as Bone-Head, roll for this normally before the monster moves and apply the normal effects.
Monsters always count as opposing players for the purpose of player interaction, except that monsters never receive either offensive or defensive assists. If a monster is ever injured, do not roll on the injury table, but instead remove it permanently from the dungeon.
Suggested Monsters: (roll a D6 to pick one)
1. Ogre, 2. Troll, 3. Minotaur, 4. Mummy, 5. Flesh Golem, 6. Vampire.
You may also wish to use more exotic monsters like manticores or cockatrices that don't exist on normal BB teams, but as these can take up a lot of space in the dungeon it is a bit too complicated to suggest quick rules for them here.
Comments and suggestions welcome.
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SetzerGabbz
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
I like them. They don't change too many rules, and they aren't overly complicated.
EDIT: Also, I'm saving up cardboard from all the food boxes from around the house to make up floor plans. You've inspired me, sir!
EDIT: Also, I'm saving up cardboard from all the food boxes from around the house to make up floor plans. You've inspired me, sir!
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anc001
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
hi folks, I'm the author of the dungeonbowl rules found in Bl!tz issue 1, otherwise being referred to as the ausbowl rules.
To clarify, they are designed as a supplement to be.added to the Latest Bb rules (e.g. crp) and NOT require any previous dungeonbowl rules.
This ruleset has been developed and play tested over the.last 2+ years and is what we use in our dungeon bowl tournaments (google for Adelaide dungeon bowl cup).
if you check my other threads here or on ausbowl you can see our hirst arts dungeons.
cheers, Alex.
To clarify, they are designed as a supplement to be.added to the Latest Bb rules (e.g. crp) and NOT require any previous dungeonbowl rules.
This ruleset has been developed and play tested over the.last 2+ years and is what we use in our dungeon bowl tournaments (google for Adelaide dungeon bowl cup).
if you check my other threads here or on ausbowl you can see our hirst arts dungeons.
cheers, Alex.
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yggdrasil
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
Thanks for posting Alex! Your hirst arts dungeon is extremely cool and inspiring, and it's good to see passion out there for this game variant. And the more house rule sets the better, since other groups can get ideas for how to spice up and adjust the game if they so wish.
If you're still reading, personally I'd be interested in hearing about the thoughts behind the changes you've made to the standard rules, such as the examples I mentioned above with teleporting into the dungeon and teleporting multiple times per turn. I also seem to remember that you counted all casualties as badly hurt. Did you play using the normal rules originally, and then made these changes later to sort out specific problems you were having, or did the changes just seem more to your liking for no particular reason?
If you're still reading, personally I'd be interested in hearing about the thoughts behind the changes you've made to the standard rules, such as the examples I mentioned above with teleporting into the dungeon and teleporting multiple times per turn. I also seem to remember that you counted all casualties as badly hurt. Did you play using the normal rules originally, and then made these changes later to sort out specific problems you were having, or did the changes just seem more to your liking for no particular reason?
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anc001
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
Thanks for the kind words, everything to do with our project, from making the dungeon, playtesting the game and running the tournament are all wonderfully fun pasttimes!yggdrasil wrote:Thanks for posting Alex! Your hirst arts dungeon is extremely cool and inspiring, and it's good to see passion out there for this game variant. And the more house rule sets the better, since other groups can get ideas for how to spice up and adjust the game if they so wish.
I'll have a go at it, keep the questions comingIf you're still reading, personally I'd be interested in hearing about the thoughts behind the changes you've made to the standard rules, such as the examples I mentioned above
but not on the first turnwith teleporting into the dungeon
we start with 6 players in their 3 doorways (act as endzones) and found it made more sense for this to be the primary 'wave' of players heading out into the dungeon, and the teleporting players are treated like reserves in a game of 40k. There's no big deal here gameplay wise you could easily change it to teleport a 7th player in in the first turn, we just prefered it this way.
We found that a) this became hard to keep a track of who had already teleported.and teleporting multiple times per turn.
b) We also found that being teleported carries a pretty big risk of its own, so the act of teleporting a second time takes your chance of being lost from 16% to 33%, enough of a deterrent for most players.
NOTE that one of the best changes we ever made was to rule that no player could ever be stationary on a teleporter, if you enter the square you not only travel to another pad, but you get pushed off it at the other end to a random square. Before this rule change it was difficult to use themas you'd always be picking players up to look at what teleporter number they were standing on.
since the rules were for a ressurection style format this is a case of keeping the unnessary record keeping to a minimum. This would be changed in a league or progression tournament.I also seem to remember that you counted all casualties as badly hurt.
We originally used Jervis' rules, butkept coming across things that made the game more cumbersome, drawn out and we wanted a fluid easy game.Did you play using the normal rules originally, and then made these changes later to sort out specific problems you were having, or did the changes just seem more to your liking for no particular reason?
A very important point I need to make is that our rules are designed to make dungeonbowl a tournament friendly format, with a limited game time and a variety of different results possible (not just win/loss/draw). In the original too many games went for several hours resulting in stalemates.
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Axtklinge
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
I like the rules!yggdrasil wrote:(...)
Comments and suggestions welcome.
I guess I'll give 'em a try next time I get to play a DB game.
About the monsters in the dungeon, I find the idea really cool and it might turn out to be a really interesting addiction to one-off games!
And its a fantastic opportunity to give a good use to a bunch of minis that just stand in the shelves now a days...
Edit: Just one question, I presume you follow the team composition from the original Jervis rules right? Or did you changed anything?
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yggdrasil
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
Thanks a lot for the reply Alex!
However, I do agree with you that since teleporting is dangerous, multiple teleportation isn't something most players would want to do.
I see your point about not wanting the teleporters to be occupied so you can see the number of them at all times. In my games I haven't had this be a problem yet, so I doubt I'd bother with having to make an extra die roll after each teleport at this stage. But if it ever becomes an issue I'll keep this in mind.
As for your other points, I think I have to read your rules through again to understand them a bit better!
Funnily enough, my first reaction was exactly the same as yours, and to begin with we played that you couldn't teleport in a player on the first turn. However, each time my opponent tried to teleport a guy in on turn one, and I had to keep reminding him that turn one was a non-teleporting turn, which made me think: Why institute a rule exception when the gameplay effect is effectively nil? So we decided to just stick with the base rule for simplicity.anc001 wrote: we start with 6 players in their 3 doorways (act as endzones) and found it made more sense for this to be the primary 'wave' of players heading out into the dungeon, and the teleporting players are treated like reserves in a game of 40k. There's no big deal here gameplay wise you could easily change it to teleport a 7th player in in the first turn, we just prefered it this way.
I don't quite understand how it can be hard to keep track of who has already teleported, since a player can only move and therefore teleport during their own activation each turn. Once you finish a player's activation, you no longer need to remember if he has teleported or not... As I understand it, the rule is only there to prevent players with high movement constantly re-teleporting to try and get to the one teleporter they want to go to.anc001 wrote: We found that a) this became hard to keep a track of who had already teleported.
b) We also found that being teleported carries a pretty big risk of its own, so the act of teleporting a second time takes your chance of being lost from 16% to 33%, enough of a deterrent for most players.
NOTE that one of the best changes we ever made was to rule that no player could ever be stationary on a teleporter, if you enter the square you not only travel to another pad, but you get pushed off it at the other end to a random square. Before this rule change it was difficult to use themas you'd always be picking players up to look at what teleporter number they were standing on.
However, I do agree with you that since teleporting is dangerous, multiple teleportation isn't something most players would want to do.
I see your point about not wanting the teleporters to be occupied so you can see the number of them at all times. In my games I haven't had this be a problem yet, so I doubt I'd bother with having to make an extra die roll after each teleport at this stage. But if it ever becomes an issue I'll keep this in mind.
As for your other points, I think I have to read your rules through again to understand them a bit better!
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yggdrasil
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
Thanks a lot! And thanks for asking that question at the end, as it is an absolutely crucial one for me, but one I haven't really talked about yet.Axtklinge wrote: I like the rules!
I guess I'll give 'em a try next time I get to play a DB game.
About the monsters in the dungeon, I find the idea really cool and it might turn out to be a really interesting addiction to one-off games!
And its a fantastic opportunity to give a good use to a bunch of minis that just stand in the shelves now a days...
Edit: Just one question, I presume you follow the team composition from the original Jervis rules right? Or did you changed anything?
I guess the reason I haven't talked about it yet is that it is a bit complicated. The short answer is that yes, I've changed a few things. However, the original colleges of magic teams are my primary inspiration for doing this project, so it's something I've given a lot of thought. Although you can obviously play DB using regular BB teams, the fact that the game format has its own unique team structure built around the colleges of magic is what gives it its extraordinary charm in my view.
When it comes to the college teams, I find there to be two considerations. The first is what combinations of specialist players is allowed on teams, the second is what races are allowed on the teams. The original Jervis rules for the first issue were that a team could have two blitzers, four blockers, four catchers, two throwers, and any number of linemen. However, with the advent of third edition I found this to be a problem for two reasons. Firstly, there was some unsatisfying ambiguity - for example, do Dwarf Runners count as throwers? They aren't called that, but they have access to passing skills and there used to be throwers on Dwarf teams in second ed. Secondly, I found that it just didn't let me take some combinations I wanted to take, on the Harlequin team I wanted both two elf blitzers and two human blitzers for example, which wouldn't be allowed (and in second ed I could have taken human blockers, but they no longer exist in third). So the result was that I changed the rules to the following:
DUNGEONBOWL TEAM CREATION
Dungeonbowl teams may have a maximum of 16 players total and a minimum of 11 starting players. Each Dungeonbowl team list indicates what the primary race (0-16 players), secondary race (0-6 players) and tertiary race (0-2 players) are for that team. Within each race slot, you may include any number of regular players and a maximum of two of each type of specialist player from the Blood Bowl team lists. Regular players are defined as any player type that is normally allowed in the quantities 0-12 or 0-6, and specialist players are the player types normally allowed in the quantities 0-4 or 0-2. Big guys always count as regular players. Each Dungeonbowl team receives 1,000,000 gold crowns to spend on creating a starting team as normal, and Team Re-rolls cost 50,000 crowns each for all teams.
This method allows you to go slightly overboard in certain areas, the Storm Bolts team could have six blitzers for example (two each from Skaven, Orcs and DE), but I find it quite satisfying to work with.
The second consideration is the races themselves. As it stands, there are two generations of DB team race combinations - the original set (for 2nd ed), and the White Dwarf update set (for 3rd ed). The WD set made some adjustments mainly to remove races that no longer existed, and in some cases to correct some unfortunate necessities from the original, like the Celestial Comets being an all-elf team and not a mixed race team, which was so that you could play the game just with the models in the box. Rather than accept either the original set or the WD set, I've made my own third generation of race lists based entirely on my own ideas of what I thought would be both coolest and most in harmony with the spirit of the originals.
In case anyone is rolling their eyes at the amount of times I'm writing "I" in this discussion, the reason I do so is because I'm lucky enough to have a friend and regular opponent who doesn't know anything about Blood Bowl, but is totally happy to play using my miniatures and any rules I suggest, and even offers suggestions for improvement which are really useful (and also beats me a majority of the time). If I was part of a larger group where people had their own teams, presumably the team building rules would be different as they would have to take other people's collections and preferences into account, but currently I have the creative control to attune the rules solely to my own collection and preferences, and to write house rules for anything I feel is missing.
Anyway, the team lists I use for each colour is as follows:
Light / Doom Forgers (team complete)
Primary - Dwarfs
Secondary - Halflings
Tertiary - Werewolves (house ruled: MV7 ST4 AG3 AV8, frenzy, catch, regenerate, wild animal, 110k)
Amethyst / Grim Reapers (almost complete, needs slightly more paint)
Primary - Skaven
Secondary - Goblins
Tertiary - Minotaurs
Gold / War Hawks (almost complete, needs slightly more paint)
Primary - Orcs
Secondary - Chaos Dwarfs
Tertiary - Ogres
Grey / Grey Shadows (about half painted)
Primary - Chaos Humans (house ruled team)
Secondary - Snotlings
Tertiary - Ogres
Rainbow / Harlequins (need more halflings and amazons, unpainted)
Primary - Wood Elves (or my house ruled version of them named Light Elves)
Secondary - Halflings
Tertiary - Amazons
Amber / Storm Bolts (need to convert dark elves, unpainted)
Primary - Dark Elves
Secondary - Orcs
Tertiary - Skaven
Jade / Green Destroyers (need more goblins, unpainted)
Primary - Orcs
Secondary - Goblins (considering changing this to a hobgoblin house rule team)
Tertiary - Trolls
Dark / Black Widows (need to convert dark elves, but all undead are painted cos I'm reusing models from an old team
)Primary - Skeletons (house ruled version of the khemri team)
Secondary - Dark Elves
Tertiary - Trolls
Celestial / Celestial Comets (need to convert high elves and dryads)
Primary - Wood (Light) Elves
Secondary - High (Grey) Elves
Tertiary - Dryads (house ruled team - it seemed too silly and impractical to have treemen in a dungeon)
Bright / Blood Axes (have nothing, apart from two dwarf kickers I bought on ebay last night)
Primary - Dwarfs
Secondary - Humans
Tertiary - Norse
I could obviously go into more detail, but I've already been writing for too long while I meant to do other things...
(yet I took the time to edit and note down how far I am on assembling each team.)
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yggdrasil
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
Sorry for these long posts, but there is one more point I think it is relevant to raise.
The premise of Dungeonbowl is that there are only ten teams, no more, no less, and that the players just pick two of them when they want to play a game. While this premise is perfectly satisfying when you consider the game as a standalone boardgame in the style of Dread Fleet, it becomes a problem when you move into third edition Blood Bowl rules and want to start using campaign progression in your games. If there is only ten teams in existence, clearly these are teams made up of all star playes like the Reikland Reavers or Chaos All-Stars, and players have no conceptual space to start a young fresh team with its own name and style, let alone get so far as to let their players earn SPPs. It also makes it logically impossible for two teams of the same type to play against each other.
Obviously you don't have to think about that when playing, but team campaign progression is such a big and fun part of BB that I don't want to play without it, and I'd like to reconcile that system with the character of DB as the gladiatorial ring of the colleges of magic and their special teams.
So far, the way I've been thinking about representing it is that the ten big teams are the ones that duke it out in the annual Grand Dungeonbowl tournament, and they represent the best of the best that each college has to offer. However, the players on the first teams aren't the only ones ever playing Dungeonbowl - for the rest of the year, each college sponsors several lesser teams that are built around the same structure as the first teams, and from which the most promising players are drafted to form the first teams once the time for the grand tournament comes around. So the various lesser teams spend the year engaged in training matches against their own or other colleges, and each of these teams have their own local names and can have variations in their uniform colours (though the official colours of their college are preferred). Thinking about it this way allows players to follow the modern Blood Bowl convention of coaches making up their own teams and having them gain skills and new players the more they play, without invalidating the idea behind the original ten colleges and their setup. You could even institute a rule saying that when a player gets a certain amount of SPPs, they automatically retire from the team as they are drafted into their college's first team (and the team is paid a hefty amount of cash for them).
Any comments or suggestions welcome, as I haven't talked any of this over with anyone before.
The premise of Dungeonbowl is that there are only ten teams, no more, no less, and that the players just pick two of them when they want to play a game. While this premise is perfectly satisfying when you consider the game as a standalone boardgame in the style of Dread Fleet, it becomes a problem when you move into third edition Blood Bowl rules and want to start using campaign progression in your games. If there is only ten teams in existence, clearly these are teams made up of all star playes like the Reikland Reavers or Chaos All-Stars, and players have no conceptual space to start a young fresh team with its own name and style, let alone get so far as to let their players earn SPPs. It also makes it logically impossible for two teams of the same type to play against each other.
Obviously you don't have to think about that when playing, but team campaign progression is such a big and fun part of BB that I don't want to play without it, and I'd like to reconcile that system with the character of DB as the gladiatorial ring of the colleges of magic and their special teams.
So far, the way I've been thinking about representing it is that the ten big teams are the ones that duke it out in the annual Grand Dungeonbowl tournament, and they represent the best of the best that each college has to offer. However, the players on the first teams aren't the only ones ever playing Dungeonbowl - for the rest of the year, each college sponsors several lesser teams that are built around the same structure as the first teams, and from which the most promising players are drafted to form the first teams once the time for the grand tournament comes around. So the various lesser teams spend the year engaged in training matches against their own or other colleges, and each of these teams have their own local names and can have variations in their uniform colours (though the official colours of their college are preferred). Thinking about it this way allows players to follow the modern Blood Bowl convention of coaches making up their own teams and having them gain skills and new players the more they play, without invalidating the idea behind the original ten colleges and their setup. You could even institute a rule saying that when a player gets a certain amount of SPPs, they automatically retire from the team as they are drafted into their college's first team (and the team is paid a hefty amount of cash for them).
Any comments or suggestions welcome, as I haven't talked any of this over with anyone before.
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Piousman
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
It would seem that it sort of sucks to lose developed players like that, even in exchange for money. How about keeping track of them, and allowing the coach to use them one-off, in a cup format? Sort of like the lower league coach being promoted himself to the majors in recognition of his skills in training players.
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SetzerGabbz
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
I was actually curious about what size rooms and corridors you're using. I've been cutting out squares to use as tiles, but I'm quite sure how many of what rooms I need. I was also curious about what you were using for trap tokens.
I actually found some good chests. Mage Knights Dungeons had changeable contents, so you just set all of them to *TRAP!* except one, and that's the one with the ball in it.
I actually found some good chests. Mage Knights Dungeons had changeable contents, so you just set all of them to *TRAP!* except one, and that's the one with the ball in it.
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yggdrasil
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
Probably true, I was thinking of when a player maxes out on star player rolls or something like that, something that would only affect the most experienced players on very high TR teams. I've never played any team that long myself so it's all theory for me. But I do have a soft spot for the "aging" concept, that your star players will eventually retire so you have to replace them with new talent.Piousman wrote:It would seem that it sort of sucks to lose developed players like that, even in exchange for money. How about keeping track of them, and allowing the coach to use them one-off, in a cup format? Sort of like the lower league coach being promoted himself to the majors in recognition of his skills in training players.
The trap counters I made myself. I basically found a picture of the old counters from the original boxed game on boardgamegeek, printed out sufficient copies of pictures of the tokens, then glued them to either sides of cardboard and cut them out. I'll take a picture when I get home to illustrate.SetzerGabbz wrote:I was actually curious about what size rooms and corridors you're using. I've been cutting out squares to use as tiles, but I'm quite sure how many of what rooms I need. I was also curious about what you were using for trap tokens.
I actually found some good chests. Mage Knights Dungeons had changeable contents, so you just set all of them to *TRAP!* except one, and that's the one with the ball in it.
Those chests sound awesome. When I first started building this dungeon, I started by taking the original Dungeonbowl tiles, counting how many squares they had in total, and then built enough of my own tiles to match that square number, with a mix of corridors and rooms. Since then I've made loads more tiles though, as well as the elevated platforms.
However, you really don't need a big dungeon to have a good game - a smaller dungeon makes it more intense, really. If you make the dungeon too big, you risk a large part of it being unused, since once the ball is found, there doesn't tend to be much more exploration, just bashing. You might compare it to a first person shooter computer game, with two players in a deathmatch... the bigger the level, the more time is spent running around trying to find each other rather than actually fighting.
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yggdrasil
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
I don't think I managed to post pics of my finished minotaurs yet, so here they are.
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yggdrasil
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Re: Dungeonbowl Project
Here is a shot of the trap tokens, half of them with the black, blank side showing, and the other half with the pit itself showing. The idea is that you flip them once someone is pushed onto them. Behind the tokens are three War Hawks orcs I just finished.
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