Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[Mossman]

Did a bit of searching but came up empty ...

Now, from what the skill description says the claw skill effectively treats all players like they have AV 7 (that have higher AV) ... having no effect on AV 7 players basically.

Adding MB to the mix means all your opponents effectively have AV 6 (let's not go halfling here). Considering this skill is limited to Chaos, skaven, nurgle and CD (skaven and CD needing a double) this makes those teams (chaos and nurgle more so) very effective at the killing game.

Would it be terribly unbalanced to have claw only treat players like they have AV8? ... this means claw only affects high AV players (9 or 10) ... all orcs, longbeards, CW, most big guys ... still a sizable portion of the BB player population.

Lets do some stats on that:
Players affected currently:
Treeman, Vampire, Mummy, Wight, Zombie, Rat ogre, Storm vermin, orc lineman, orc blitzer, BLorc, orc thrower, ogres, Nurgle beast, nurgle warrior, prestigors, rotters, snow troll, ulfwerner, werewolves, Flesh golems, Saurus, krox, Blitz-ra, human blitzers, human throwers, human lineman, high elf blitzers, high elf linman, high elf thrower, trolls, elf blitzers, death roller, longbeards, dwarf blitzers, runners, troll slayers, DE blitzers, DE lineman, Mino, Bull cent, CD blockers, CW, beasts

total affected: 43 player positions - 54%
total not affected: 36

If claw was AV8 instead of AV7 this would change to:
total affected: 18 player positions - 23%
total not affected: 61

This makes the skill a more tactical skill to get rather than a generic skill and also evens up the game between bashing teams a tiny bit. Skaven vs chaos for example... chaos claws wouldn't touch any skaven player but the skaven claws (aquired by a double) would only affect the CW's

Right, the MB skill affects 100% of the player positions ... why shouldn't claw be at least half as effective?
My answer to that is because their use can be combined. If Claw would exclude the use of MB (choice based) and MB respectively would exclude the use of Claw then the current setting for Claw would be perfectly balanced imo. The fact that they can be combined is ... too deadly to allow only two teams ready access to those two skills (without doubles).

So, in effect by excluding MB and Claw to be used for the same armour/injury roll means MB is effective for getting through AV7 armour (roll of 7 on the dice) while Claw would penetrate everything rolled higher. This means that 7 on the dice excludes the use of MB on the injury but adds a 16,7% chance higher of getting the injury roll over having just claw.

... seems "right" to me

You are completely right that Claw in combination with MB is a very strong and deadly combination. You might very well call it broken. However chaos teams NEED such a strong combination to be able to compete with the other teams. Claw is what make chaos teams good, without it they would simply suck. Therefore Claw is fine as it is. The problem in CRP is not claw, the problem is Pilling On.

One big problem however is that now it is possible for Chaos Dwarfs to get Claw. That is enormously broken because Chaos Dwarfs unlike Chaos do not need such a strong combination to be able to compete with the other teams. Because Chaos Dwarfs are good enough as they are without it. Imagine giving Claw access to Orcs, Dwarfs or Elves; that would be nothing else than utterly broken since those races are good enough as they are without such a strong combination. By giving claw access to chaos dwarfs they have become the best team in the game and are now extremly overpowered and broken, which just isnt fun. I regard this as one of the biggest flaws with the current ruleset. Chaos Dwarfs must lose access to Claw somehow. Either by completely losing access to mutations or by something else like splitting up mutations into two categories and only let chaos dwarfs have access to the category without Claw.

[Mossman]

Given how often I have to listen to the "you took the blood out of Blood Bowl, Galak" comments over the last 3 years ... I love seeing all the new folks who are coming into the game who think the game is too bloody.

Galak

The game is not to bloody, its to bloody in the wrong way.

Fouling in LRB4 required skill, clawpombing in CRP (or just pombing if we talk about av7 teams) doesnt. The problem with CRP is that it is to easy to remove players from the pitch by simply blitzing them with a killer. So what should be done is it should be harder to remove players by simply blitzing them but at the same time the injury/death rate of players must still be as high as now in replacement of aging. Therefore some changes to the system is needed that fixes this. The best way I can think of is to nerf specialised killers (i.e. nerf pilling on) while improve fouling and also perhaps alter the Casulty Table to let more players die. Right now they get an injury on 51-58 and die on 61-68, perhaps they could instead get an injury on 41-54 and die on 55-68 for example.

[Mossman]

Although I accept Claw/MB is an effective combination, and can really cause a lot of damage to teams, there does not appear to be much evidence that such killer teams are better at winning games than their peers. I'm trying to get stats off focus/cyanide to look at how well teams are performing, but based off their published rankings Chaos are not dominating - even though the teams most vulnerable to claw are both represented.

Chaos isnt expected to have better win ratio than the other teams. Their expensive players and no starting skills except Horns make them pretty weak and its only thanks to Claw they can really stand up against the other teams. The problem with CRP isnt claw but the improved version of Pilling On and Chaos isnt the only team with access to that skill. Sure, chaos profits most by the new Pilling On since they have the biggest stack of killing skills to combine it with but at the same time they suffer a lot from pilling on too since they only have av8 (the lower armour on the target the better pilling on is). Also their much needed Claw skill that help them so much has been nerfed in CRP against av8 and doesnt affect av7 at all. So all in all chaos havent been made that much better in CRP and a high win ratio isnt really expected for them. It is only expected for Chaos Dwarfs.

Also another reason that might effect the win ratio of chaos is that many noobs arent even aware of how powerful Claw is and doesnt use it to its maximum. Also it takes a pretty long time to build a clawpomber which of course affect the win ratio.

So the win ratio of chaos is pretty expected.

But the problem still remains. Pilling On is to powerful and make the game boring as it is to powerful and game deciding (especially against av7 and 8, not that much against av9) and requires no brain to use. Every team having pombers is a bit like every team having Claw & RSC - not fun and brainless. The strategical decisions of the coach should have the biggest impact of the game, not the injury dice of your pombers.

[the.tok]

Seriously, I can't believe how much discussion this combo can generate...

there used to be much deadlier combinations before
I mean : Horns + dauntless + Claw( +2 to AV roll) + razor sharp claw (+2 to inj roll) + multiblock on a beastman (or even a very lucky gutter runner). Now THAT was scary.
When piling on used to be +ST to AV roll (and stackable with MB).
And DP that made +2/+2...

Galak, you took the blood out of BB
(kidding, the game is for sure much better now)

There is absolutely no issue to this combo. You have to get prone, this is a pretty big downside. And this is a 3 skills combo, so it has to be powerful


The issue about SPP farming worries me much more.
That is cheating to me. I used to have a player in my TT league who was obviously cheating on his advancement rolls (AG4 BC made me suspicious), it turned out he was faking special skill rolls quite often. This pissed me off, and that is in the same basket to me.

I don't understand the point : what is the point of playing a game where you develop a team if you don't do it legally? Just edit your team sheet and play offline if you want overpowered teams (or just play 1-P )

[Mossman]

Seriously, I can't believe how much discussion this combo can generate...

there used to be much deadlier combinations before
I mean : Horns + dauntless + Claw( +2 to AV roll) + razor sharp claw (+2 to inj roll) + multiblock on a beastman (or even a very lucky gutter runner). Now THAT was scary.

LRB4 version of Claw and Razor Sharp Claw was not deadlier than the current version of POMB and certainly not deadlier than Clawpomb.

The chance of causing a KO or a CAS against av7 with Claw + RSC was 52,16%. With POMB its as high as 58,44%.

The chance of causing a KO or a CAS against av9 with Claw + RSC was 30,09%. With POMB its 32%. And with Clawpomb its 58,44%.

So Claw + RSC was not in anyway deadlier.

Also Claw + RSC required two doubles to get. And when someone finally got such a player he wasnt very long lived since he was everyone's favorite foul target. In CRP on the other hand clawpomb can be taken on normal skill rolls which make the broken combination much more common.

Since CRP has given every team in the game access to POMB - a deadlier combination than the old Claw + RSC - it isnt a surprise that many complain about it and discuss how broken it is and how it has decreased the strategical parts of the game.

[the.tok]

LRB4 version of Claw and Razor Sharp Claw was not deadlier than the current version of POMB and certainly not deadlier than Clawpomb.

The chance of causing a KO or a CAS against av7 with Claw + RSC was 52,16%. With POMB its as high as 58,44%.

The chance of causing a KO or a CAS against av9 with Claw + RSC was 30,09%. With POMB its 32%. And with Clawpomb its 58,44%.

So Claw + RSC was not in anyway deadlier.

Can't let you say that Starfox!

You're right that it is a little bit better to KO, but it is definitely worse in terms of killing players. That is what I understand by deadly so sorry if I misunderstood


I also included an old POMB mummy which is 6SPP and was also better at killing AV9.

With claw+RSC, you had 12% chance to kill an AV7 on each block, you didn't even go prone. Against AV9, 6.94%. Now you have 5.17%

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/8041/cas2.png

PS: new PO+MB is a pain to calculate honestly, so many things to consider ^^

[dode74]

The strategical decisions of the coach should have the biggest impact of the game, not the injury dice of your pombers.

Or the ball handling dice of your ball handlers? I suspect that these have a far bigger impact on the result of a game than injury dice.

Higher player turnover than LRB 4 was desirable for the purposes of perpetual leagues because at very high TV it just becomes a game of who can roll the least 1s, and that's no fun whatsoever. LRB 5/CRP is supposed to be more bloody than 4.

[swilhelm73]

As something to consider...presuming a successful block for a MB+Claw player, the most likely result is still only a stun; eg roll 7 and then another 7.

PO does change the math significantly...but as always we are talking about weakening claw, not PO.

Claw is simply not overpowered by itself. It is less useful then MB for AV8, useless for <AV7, and only marginally better then MB for AV9. It is basically a situation skill - compare to MB, PO, or Guard and imagine you are playing a Chaos team in a league with no Dwarves or Orcs.

Further, SOMETHING has to focus on killing those AV9 players with aging removed. Otherwise in a perpetual league Dwarves and Orcs are virtually immortal.

The particular implementation of claw is overall pretty darn good. Giving it to Chaos goes with their fluff of being a killing team. It is at best a third skill after MB and Block, so generally you won't see much of it until around TV2000 - when leagues need some teams to trim those TV numbers.

And remember Killer Chaos teams police each other's TV.

For example, in one of the leagues I am in I have a Chaos team around TV2100 - I have two claw players*. There is another Chaos team with a higher TV with 3 claw players. In our last game I killed one of his lvl6 claw stars. In the match before he "trimmed" a high TV dwarf team.

*Another thing to consider is how many skills a chaos team needs before it can think about claw. If you presume 11 starters all with 2 regular skills (block/guard, wrestle/tackle, SH/Extra Arms, etc), 2 reserves, 4 RR and 10 FF you are already up to TV1500.

[Hitonagashi]

First,the odds are increased when you realise you aren't RRing any BH/KO into stun. I think if you break armour, it's around a 75% chance of getting KO/BH with a PO.

Second, at least in FUMBBL Box, the usual first 3 skills for at least the first 3 players to skill are mb, then claw, then PO. This is because once you have these skills, the speed you skill up leaps through the roof, and you can probably get the killer to at least 76spp before any of your other beasts hits 16.

That said, I wouldn't change much about the combo. My only wish in these debates is that people would stop assuming that BH/KO is the same as BH. It's really not.

[dode74]

First,the odds are increased when you realise you aren't RRing any BH/KO into stun.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Second, at least in FUMBBL Box,

I think you've identified the problem TV-based MM

mattgslater and I went around this debate for some time and eventually we concluded (and you are, of course, free to disagree) that the problem (if there is one) doesn't lie with the combo, but with what it does to certain high potential but slow-skilling players (BOBs, TGs, Mummies etc). This causes team development issues. One way to relieve this is to allow a slightly better targeting of the MVP. Optional rules in CRP suggest that you can merely nominate whoever you like, but we settled on rolling for two players and selecting one as a reasonable way to speed things up; if it's not fast enough then you can always randomly select more players to be eligible.

[daloonieshaman]

just solve the problem by knocking him over and chain foul him until he is out

[Hitonagashi]

Dode: Assuming you RR all stuns and never rr a KO or better, taking the result of the RR if you RR it, the probability of each "result" is roughly

2: 1.6%
3: 3.2%
4: 4.9%
5: 6.5%
6: 8.0%
7: 9.7%
8: 21.9%
9: 17.5%
10: 13.1%
11: 8.8%
12: 4.4%

Hence, I meant exactly what I said. The most common number is no longer 7 on an injury result if you are RR'ing stuns.


[Edit]...that came off as a bit snarky! Didn't mean it to be quite like that. Sorry!

In terms of my own thoughts on the combo, I'm undecided. My only problem is it is the loss of control thing I saw posted, that if they get lucky, and get 5-6 players KO'ed cassed in the first 2-3 turns, there's very little you can do for the remainder of the half. I've actually got no problem with it in a team development sense, I really like that teams are forced to rebuild, and frequently sack lots of players to do it. Adds a bit more strategy to the rebuilds.

[Kuosa]

I do not see any problems with the mechanic of Piling Clow (good term lol), it is needed for a Necro team to reliably be a hammer to the Golem anvil.

Honestly the only problem I see is the AMOUNT of the combo used, my league has 25 players this year and 11 have claw access. Others are dwarves, orcs and a few prancy elves. The amount of claw will make it a very deadly league and my chaos dwarves already lost a player to a Nurgle claw. I would love to get the apothecary back to being useful instead of confirming a death. With the amount of claw it would be good to save at least 1 key player.

Also I find it ridiculous to see such an AMOUNT of discussion about this one thing and would rather go tackle some elves (no homo).

[dode74]

Hito - you didn't come across snarky. I understand what you mean now, but that's fairly obvious. The same is true of any RR: you never RR a success.

[MattDakka]

I do not see any problems with the mechanic of Piling Clow (good term lol), it is needed for a Necro team to reliably be a hammer to the Golem anvil.

Honestly the only problem I see is the AMOUNT of the combo used, my league has 25 players this year and 11 have claw access. Others are dwarves, orcs and a few prancy elves. The amount of claw will make it a very deadly league and my chaos dwarves already lost a player to a Nurgle claw. I would love to get the apothecary back to being useful instead of confirming a death. With the amount of claw it would be good to save at least 1 key player.

Also I find it ridiculous to see such an AMOUNT of discussion about this one thing and would rather go tackle some elves (no homo).

I agree on Necro needing Claw, but at least the Werewolves require 2 double rolls to get Mighty Blow and Piling on, and they are the only 2 players with Claw in the team.
Chaos and Nurgle don't need double rolls, hence the combo it's easily accessible and spammed.
I would like the old apothecary as well, the new one is awful.