Narrow Tiers and Galaks Wish List

[garion]

About halflings, having played that insanely high armoured fling team with my lizards.
The reason they are good is they are cheap

halflings are good? Seriously?
insanely high armour?
don't let this particular game give you false ideas. They is no way they are better than lizards, or any tier 1 team, even with AV7
IMO this buff is reasonable

I never said halflings were good. But you should be able to hurt them, they are haflings, should they have as good armour as Goblins, Pro Elves or Amazons? I dont think so. certainly not for their cost. I like narrowing the tiers to a point, but think the extra chef is enough really.

I didn't say they were better than lizardmen either, but lizardmen are already one of the teams I find easiest to beat with Flings at a rookie level, and in that game he should have cleared the pitch against me really but for some reason didnt foul once? I just think Av7 is pretty tough to beat for any rookie team and when you can have 16 player team with trees and the rest flings you should be uber foul happy.

[the.tok]

About halflings, having played that insanely high armoured fling team with my lizards.
The reason they are good is they are cheap

halflings are good? Seriously?
insanely high armour?
don't let this particular game give you false ideas. They is no way they are better than lizards, or any tier 1 team, even with AV7
IMO this buff is reasonable

I never said halflings were good. But you should be able to hurt them, they are haflings, should they have as good armour as Goblins, Pro Elves or Amazons? I dont think so. certainly not for their cost. I like narrowing the tiers to a point, but think the extra chef is enough really.

I didn't say they were better than lizardmen either, but lizardmen are already one of the teams I find easiest to beat with Flings at a rookie level, and in that game he should have cleared the pitch against me really but for some reason didnt foul once? I just think Av7 is pretty tough to beat for any rookie team and when you can have 16 player team with trees and the rest flings you should be uber foul happy.

The comparison with amazons and pro elves is unfair, because the +1 to injury is a big deal in terms of survival. That and the whole team except BG being ST2.

On the other hand, you are right that it puts them on the level of goblins. The point is I think it is not set in stone that they should be less resilient than goblins, but I can understand people thinking the other way, fluffwise for example.

You have a point when you say that lizards are one of the best (least bad?) matchups for halflings at rookie level, for a number of reason (lack of block/tackle, ST2 players mainly)
But even for them I still think the matchup is in favour of the tier 1 team, so to me the norrowing doesn't go too far with AV7.

To me, you have been extremely unlucky... and you still won anyway (well, from what you said you were the more experienced coach of the two, but still).
You just had a hard time.
That's the whole purpose isn't it?

[garion]

To me, you have been extremely unlucky... and you still won anyway (well, from what you said you were the more experienced coach of the two, but still).
You just had a hard time.
That's the whole purpose isn't it?

Yes and no.

I was unlucky and agree that is where flings etc... should be able to capitalise and win games. But for me flings have low armour, low cost and you have a deep bench so they can try their luck at fouling a lot. The only thing that stops them fouling quite so much is they usually lose players fairly quickly so are then limited in the number of fouls they can commit. However with Av7 they were extremely tough to KO+ and because of this I would foul every turn without fail because you can risk losing a player every turn because you will lose fewer through fair play.

Anyway. I guess its personal taste really I just find their cost is too low for an av 7 player, and flings are fairly close to being a good side in this edition already/ The buff of stopping tackle working against them is huge (im not a fan of this one either, would prefer it jsut on titchy players) and an extra chef is nice and fits the fluff and also fits previous versions of the team well.

Interestingly a fling team on fumbbl that was playing these rules beat both Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves because of the tackle doesnt work thing. So it is obviously doing its job in that respect.

Though I managed to beat some dwarves as well with my flings (flings against dwarves won/loss/draw 1/1/1) without any of these changes, so flings arent that hard up to begin with, they just suffer badly when people start pilling On and I think the extra chef helps when playing these higher tv teams.

[the.tok]

Though I managed to beat some dwarves as well with my flings (flings against dwarves won/loss/draw 1/1/1) without any of these changes, so flings arent that hard up to begin with, they just suffer badly when people start pilling On and I think the extra chef helps when playing these higher tv teams.

wow, only 3 games, but still! GG for that record against dwarves:)

Mainly a dwarf player, don't even remember a single loss against flings' (well, many flings avoid dwarves anyway, and I suppose I didn't play the best coaches in the world either). I always felt it was a pointless matchup they had no chance of winning (even worse than amazons if you ask me). Block+Tackle+MB hurts them so much, and everyone and their grandma gets it at 6spp/16spp.

But maybe your flings don't need any buff after all

[garion]

Don't get me wrong I was jammy as hell I just dont think they need av7 especially not without a price increase

[Rhyoth]

First, thanks plasmoid for your contribution ; it was obviously a lot of hard work, and overall, it's full of interresting ideas (i particulary like your buff to Right Stuff ). However, in order to be constructive, i'll focus my comments on what feels wrong (sorry in advance).

_Piling On : well, i can't help it, i simply hate your version of this skill, mainly because :
a) you stripped out the fun part about PO : choosing wether or not to go prone, considering you may cause no damage... (and that's probably an hidden buff, btw)
b) i think making PO a lesser MB is dull : it makes player development even more restrictive, since you're forced to take MB before PO. (If possible, i'd like to see more player taking PO before MB, or more player with PO+Claw, but without MB...)

Also, remenber this case is quite different from the Accurate/Strong Arm one, since Strong Arm is not a Passing but a Strenght skill, which means :
- Thrower rolling an early double face a dilemna : take Strong Arm first, or skip it possibly for ever.
- Strong Arm provides passing option to teams that don't really deserve it.
So, you may see players with only Strong Arm but not Accurate (or taking Strong Arm before Accurate), but with your rule, you'll NEVER see players taking PO without taking MB first.


_ Fouling and Sneaky Git :
I think i would follow both Galak's and Ian's opinions here :
a) grant a +1 to AV roll when fouling if the player is not in an opponent TZ.
b) allow players with Sneaky Git to foul and assist fouls regardless of TZs (so a player with Sneaky Git will always have a +1 when fouling, whether or not he is in an opponent TZ)

This ruling will "fix" a specific case that i've always felt was wrong :
Let's imagine two teamates, A an B, trying to foul an opponent.; A is in another opponent TZ (who can't bring an assist), while B is free.
If you foul with B, you get a +1 bonus to the AV roll, but you don't get one if you foul with A...


_ Rosters :
Human :
I already said it, but AV 8 on Catchers is awfully and terribly wrong : they are supposed to be agile but lightly armored (how can you be fast and agile if you wear that heavy AV8 armor ???). I think there are more appropriate fixes for him, such as making him a 60k piece, or giving him a skill for free.

Currently, my league is testing a 70 k Catcher with Fend, and i like it a lot : not only does it spare him a few hits, but it also makes him more useful in defense (and especially annoying, once he gets Side Step).


Undead :
I don't think boosting Mummies is the right approach (and, while i'd like to test the Grab-Mighty Blow trade, i think it's a short-term buff, and a mid/long terms nerf) : they're already awesome, making them better would raise a lot of (maybe justified) complaints (at least in my league)
For me, the biggest issue with Undead in the long-run are the Ghouls : they keep dying one after another (along with a lot of your SPPs), and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

So, here are several suggestions that won't hurt as much the living ones' sensibility :
a) Give Ghouls Regeneration for 10 or 20 k, and if it makes the team too expensive, cut 10k off Skellies and Flesh Golems (yeah, you can't make this change without changing at least Necros, probably Khemri as well).
b) When you reroll a Regen test with an Igor, add +1 to the dice.
c) Change Regen rolls : 1-2 no effect, 3-4 transform the injury into Badly Hurt*, 5-6 fully healed
*OR may reroll the injury (can't combine with an Apo)

Amazons :
I must admit this is a tricky subject, but I can't say i like your change ; it could do the trick for trounaments, but i think it will make the team very frustrating to play in a league.
A full rewrite is probably the better option here (but if you get the shadow of a fragment of consensus on that topic, consider yourself a lucky man...).

[Darkson]

I'd move Strong Arm back to Passing, and make it reduce the range band again.

I'd add a ST skill called HEAVE! that does the same as the CRP Strong Arm, but with a -1 to catch (so helps with TTM, but not as much with passing the ball).

[the.tok]

Undead :
I don't think boosting Mummies is the right approach (and, while i'd like to test the Grab-Mighty Blow trade, i think it's a short-term buff, and a mid/long terms nerf) : they're already awesome, making them better would raise a lot of (maybe justified) complaints (at least in my league)
For me, the biggest issue with Undead in the long-run are the Ghouls : they keep dying one after another (along with a lot of your SPPs), and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

So, here are several suggestions that won't hurt as much the living ones' sensibility :
a) Give Ghouls Regeneration for 10 or 20 k, and if it makes the team too expensive, cut 10k off Skellies and Flesh Golems (yeah, you can't make this change without changing at least Necros, probably Khemri as well).
b) When you reroll a Regen test with an Igor, add +1 to the dice.
c) Change Regen rolls : 1-2 no effect, 3-4 transform the injury into Badly Hurt*, 5-6 fully healed
*OR may reroll the injury (can't combine with an Apo)

Giving ghouls regen seem like a very big buff to me.
It's the dream of every undead coach
But honestly, isn't that too much?
An undead team with 4 fully developped ghouls would be pretty scary. They are SPP hog, so it will happen soon in the team's life. If they die one at a time, replacing them will be much easier.

I think it is even worse than giving G access back to mummies

and about the 3+ (kind of) regen, remember how devastating the 2+ reg was in 3ed. If you give that to ghouls, there is basically very few player turnover on that team. Well. I feel it is a little unfair, I love undead, but I don't think they need that much buff.

on a sidenote, that would buff necros too, and they need it even less.

One buff I'd really like would be to go back to 4 wights, but I'm dreaming there
that way, you could ajust to your opponent, putting any combination of ghouls and wights. Then ghouls don't need regen

About the piling on issue : what about having to declare the use of the skill before any armour roll?
I know this is a bit uncommon, but that way, you would see it less used, cause the fear of being prone without causing a stun would make it riskier, and thus less used. Maybe that is not enough though

[Darkson]

On idea I liked when I saw it (it was years ago, and I can't remember where I saw it - wasn't TFF/TBB though) was that SOME rosters had variable positionals.

For example, Undead could have 0-6 Wights/Ghouls, Dwarfs could have 0-4 Blitzers/Runners.

I can't remember the exact numbers, not the exact positionals, and it didn't work with all races, but it was a nice idea.

[garion]

Yup Tok is right Regen is a huge buff to undead, also losing MB is a big nerf to Undead, in the league this has been trialled I think they are on game 5 now and neither mummy has got a skill yet.

Also to save everyone the rouble of posting there Pilling On ideas I will post a list of all the suggestions that have been made many times before

In no particular order also some are clearly stupid, these are no my suggestions, just common suggestions that come up everytime threads go this way -

1, Galaks House rule (no stack)
2, Plasmoids house rule (+1 to roll)
3, Bringing back traits
4, Make it a foul action
5, keep it as a blitz action but if doubles are rolled for Av or Inj when Pilling On they get sent off
6, Pilling On is cancelled out by Stand Firm, Side Step and Fend,
7, Get rid of Pilling On all together
8, It can only be used on Blitz actions
9, You have to declare PO before any Av roll is made
10, Big Guy only skill.
11, The PO player must roll for Av and Inj for them self as well.
12, Pilling on puts your player stunned
13, Make Claw only reduce Av to 8
14, Change the name to Pile On so it is grammatically correct and leave it at that lol.

I think that's it, but there may be one or two more I have forgotten, likely because they are monstrously stupid. lol

[the.tok]

On idea I liked when I saw it (it was years ago, and I can't remember where I saw it - wasn't TFF/TBB though) was that SOME rosters had variable positionals.

For example, Undead could have 0-6 Wights/Ghouls, Dwarfs could have 0-4 Blitzers/Runners.

I can't remember the exact numbers, not the exact positionals, and it didn't work with all races, but it was a nice idea.

Wouldn't that lead to an optimum setting being used by all the teams eventually?
Just asking, not sure... though this is an "out of the box" idea so it may be change resistance talking here

For dwarves, I don't think it would change anything, because I always felt you need 2 Runners, no more, no less.

and for piling on, #14 is mandatory anyway

[Rhyoth]

Giving ghouls regen seem like a very big buff to me.
It's the dream of every undead coach
But honestly, isn't that too much?
An undead team with 4 fully developped ghouls would be pretty scary. They are SPP hog, so it will happen soon in the team's life. If they die one at a time, replacing them will be much easier.

I think it is even worse than giving G access back to mummies

and about the 3+ (kind of) regen, remember how devastating the 2+ reg was in 3ed. If you give that to ghouls, there is basically very few player turnover on that team. Well. I feel it is a little unfair, I love undead, but I don't think they need that much buff.

Well the point IS to make Undead (still) scary at high TV, right ? The best way to achieve it is by increasing ghouls' survivability...

Problem : if ghouls get Regen, hunting them down will be much less effective, which, i think is too good for Undead. That's why i try to change Regen as well : so it will have a lesser in-game impact, but a better long-term effect (obviously, this idea still need to be refined, but you get the idea)

[Tourach]

Really, Undead is not a very good team above 170 TR, but really good at starting level, primarily because of 2 st 5 guys with mighty blow and no nega trait. But as the develop only teams that have got block on at least one mummy seems to be competitive.
Anyways i don't know if it has been mentioned, but if it has (had i break from tff for a while) listen to 3db podcast http://threedieblock.libsyn.com/ and here Marin (Plasmoid) explain about the ntbb.

[garion]

The easiest way to imrpove Undead at a high Tv is to make fouling viable again, they along with Khemri are the teams most suited to fouling a lot. I like the +1 to av coming back, but still dont think it is enough personally.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
sorry for the delay.
I see you had a tough game. I also see you won it. Sounds perfect to me

I can see that the dice were not even between the two of you, but even so, I have a hard time taking it seriously when you call them 'insanely high armoured' and say that 'the AV boost is far too much'. I can see where you're coming from on a conceptual level - even though I don't agree. But power-wize I don't see them anywhere near the middle or top of tier one. I'll happily wait for feedback from all 13 games, but I'll say right now that ST2 AV7 +1 to injury isn't super tough - and besides, unlike elves you don't really need to reduce them in numbers to beat them. IMO.

So in a lot of ways they have done very badly out of this rule set, but because they can play the inducement game so well now - getting morg, or deeproot, sometimes both.

Agree with the first part.
Somewhat agree with the 2nd part - except for the result. Inducements sure help them, but even with that help they're not very good.

But hey, if cheap linemen and fouling is all that, then I figure Khemri and Gobbos would be broken.

I'll be cutting the Dryads and adding in the extra chef.
Without the extra AV I still think they're hopeless.
But it'll be interesting to see how the extra chef plays out.
Starting roster?
2 tress (=240) 9 flings (=510) 1 chef (=610) 0FF, 0RR, [Induce Chef + Bertha = 1000K]
Powerteam? IMO, no.
And remember that the Bank rule would force them to empty their coffers, so unlike CRP, they won't be going in with a nice 300K cushion.

As for the pricing, maybe they're getting a good deal.
But it isn't a spectacular deal.
Take a 30K halfing. Add 40K (3 points) of movement. Knock off 10K for Right Stuff and what do you have? A skink

In the 2nd playtest tournament I'll encourage both the gobbo and halfling coach to play the inducement angle.
We'll see what happens then.
Maybe you're our next fouling halfling coach

Cheers
Martin