Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[koadah]

I would prefer to state that claw has no effect on AV increases taken as skills. Therefore anyone with +AV will have an effective AV of 8 against claw, and two of them would be effective AV9. That would make it a far more viable selection (it's very rarely taken now) and available to all teams equally (thus reducing the overall attrition, if only slightly).

I am intrigued by this!

Nah. Make it claw subtracts 2 but never takes armour below 7. That is fairer on treemen or other AV10. +AV still works vs MB.

[DoubleSkulls]

Orcs do indeed go middle of the road in all stats - and I'd be perfectly happy to be able to say that I had tweaked 'less than half of the teams (11)' rather than 'half of the teams (12)'.

But I do think Orcs are an awesome team. Maybe all the noobs playing them are pulling down their stats. And in previous environments, where bash was less brutal, their sheer muscle made them a powerful choice. And I think they will be again. Certainly I've had more comments that orcs need a nerf, then comments (such as yours) disagreeing with it. So I'm inclined to keep it, even though the evidence is circumstantial at best.

I had a thought that if we look at more elite tournaments it might help factor out the "noob" factor. At the World Cup, without many newbie coaches, Orcs were .455 over 403 games and were 3rd most popular (after Undead & Wood Elves), looking at most of the EuroBowl's Orcs seem pretty middle of the road too - while still popular.

At low TVs there doesn't seem to be any evidence other than Orcs being mid-tier 1 team. A 40k hit on team value is quite a lot, and I think will push them down to tier tier 1.5. It may be interesting to think up more of a long term hit, but I can think of is taking S access off the blitzers. That however I think would hurt them too much too.

[DoubleSkulls]

Hi Doubleskulls,
thanks for playing along with my premise

If that's what you want to do then I think you have to address Claw as well as Piling On, which I think my proposal for stopping stacking between CLPOMB is a better one.

By Big Bash I don't just mean Chaos. I mean all of the high AV bashy teams. Sure, Claw rules the perpetual online leagues currently, but I've heard from several tabletop leagues dominated by Dwarfs and Orcs too.

I am saying change both Claw and Piling On, because I think if you only target Piling On you'll actually end up with the opposite result to the one you intend - people abandoning Orcs and Dwarves will switch to Claw teams because "at least I can still hurt people". So I think if you want to encourage movement away from all of them then you need to address both.

[koadah]

I am saying change both Claw and Piling On, because I think if you only target Piling On you'll actually end up with the opposite result to the one you intend - people abandoning Orcs and Dwarves will switch to Claw teams because "at least I can still hurt people". So I think if you want to encourage movement away from all of them then you need to address both.

Not just Orcs & Dwarves but nerfing PO makes Humans & Zons much less fun too.

But I suppose people who think that wouldn't be using this rule set in the first place.

[garion]

I disagree with that really DS. Orcs and Dwarves still hurt teams in lrb4 because they had MB en masse and block on their starting players. Chaos and nurgle will suffer big time from not being able to stack the deadly combo any more and their startign rosters are fairly poor.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think these are the numbers... feel free to challenge

Code: Select all

CLPOMB DoubleSkulls (PO Inj only, cannot stack MB with Claw or PO)         
Av  St      KO      Cas
8   10.1%   17.1%   14.5%
7   15.8%   23.7%   18.9%

CLMB DoubleSkulls         
Av  St      KO      Cas
8   17.4%   12.7%   11.6%
7   27.1%   16.9%   14.4%
         
POMB DoubleSkulls         
Av  St      KO      Cas
9    7.8%   11.2%   8.7%
8   11.5%   16.9%   13.3%
7   15.8%   23.7%   18.9%
         
CLPOMB Plasmoid (PO Av only, All skills stack)         
Av  St      KO      Cas
7   38.4%   23.9%   20.3%
         
CLMB Plasmoid         
Av  St      KO      Cas
7   27.1%   16.9%   14.4%
         
POMB Plasmoid         
Av  St      KO      Cas
9   33.0%   20.1%   16.8%
8   35.5%   21.8%   18.4%
7   38.4%   23.9%   20.3%

So in all instances my suggestion is less lethal or the same.

[Tourach]

I disagree with that really DS.

Double skulls posts so much he has his own shorthand respect.

Tbh, i think regarding orcs, Danes might be bias. Orc coach Tank has won the danish championship 4 times and become runner up twice if i remember correctly. This is of course tournament play...

While we are at the subject, there are other ways to beat elf teams than pure bash (yes fumbblers there is, it seems strange, but there is). I don't think that reducing bash will necessarily make "basher" teams lose more. They just need to not having such a one branched strategy.
And nerfing the clawpomb will make orcs and dwarves better. The ONLY problem playing them at higher team values IS clawpomb, they fair more then well against elves in the same medium to high tv IMHO.

[garion]

Its not as simple as all that though is it.

Look at this for example (quote below), and this isn't taking into account that Block is a better defensive skill too. Plus Orcs and Dwarves have Av9 so they are better starter teams. I think with this change martin is using it would see Dwarves and Orcs become the bashers of choice again in perpetual leagues. The problem is i think you need fouling to be improved further if Po is gettig nerfed back to lrb4. Just split lrb4 DP into two skills, and then things look better

So, which skill should a dedicated killer take? Assuming that's all he cares about.
Skilling up for bashing is an arms race. If you took mighty blow, you didn't take tackle.
So you need to choose wisely, and as you specialize, you'll be missing other things.
I know that skills have other uses besides killing, at that not all killers will develop in the same manner - this is just to give you an understanding of what kind of numbers you're up against.

Optimum 1st damage skill, for a player starting with nothing or with block respectively.
(The stats for a player starting with block are the stats in paranthesis)

Nothing 6.43 ( 8.68) Block
---------------------
Pro 7.86 ( 9.77)
Frenzy 8.57 (10.61)
Block 8.68 -
Claw 9.65 (13.02)
M.Blow 12.22 (16.49)
PiOn 14.82 (20.01)

Clearly - from a bash-only point of view, piling on is the #1 bash skill. And it was meant to be, as it is the only bash skill that comes with a penalty.
If the defense does not take advantage of the basher going prone, then they're making it too easy for him.
Fouling him is one option. Running away another. A 3rd is to stick a fend player next to him, limiting his movement on the turn he gets up.

2nd skill
PiOn 14.82 (20.01)
---------------------
Pro 18.12 (22.52)
Frenzy 19.77 (24.46)
Block 20.01 -
Claw 20.90 (28.21)
M.Blow 24.97 (33.71)

Again, there is a pretty clear winner: Mighty Blow!

3rd skill
'MiOn' 24.97 (33.71)
---------------------
Pro 30.52 (37.92)
Claw 32.47 !!!
Frenzy 33.29 (41.20)
Block 33.71 -
Claw - (43.84)

Interestingly, as the 3rd choice Claw is only the best option for a player with block. A blockless player is better off choosing a skill that will increase his chance of getting a knockdown. For such a player, Block is the statistically strongest choice.

[dode74]

I think these are the numbers... feel free to challenge

So in all instances my suggestion is less lethal or the same.

But why the relative nerf to AV7?

[Chris]

Its not as simple as all that though is it.

Look at this for example (quote below), and this isn't taking into account that Block is a better defensive skill too. Plus Orcs and Dwarves have Av9 so they are better starter teams. I think with this change martin is using it would see Dwarves and Orcs become the bashers of choice again in perpetual leagues. The problem is i think you need fouling to be improved further if Po is gettig nerfed back to lrb4. Just split lrb4 DP into two skills, and then things look better

I don't think so. In a bash vs bash set up you will still take more loses against MB and claw. In essence - including mighty blow - you are hitting armour 7 and 8 players while they are hitting armour 6 players. Unless you get an upset at the start attrition will mean you are steadily outnumbered. If we are talking about two high TV teams I still think Claw teams will have the advantage and do more damage than non claw. And that has been shown by many to be the strongest correlation to popularity.

Also as has been noted hybrid teams are dependant on MBPO blitzers and the like to get an edge over ag 4 teams who otherwise simply outplay them.

[garion]

Its not as simple as all that though is it.

Look at this for example (quote below), and this isn't taking into account that Block is a better defensive skill too. Plus Orcs and Dwarves have Av9 so they are better starter teams. I think with this change martin is using it would see Dwarves and Orcs become the bashers of choice again in perpetual leagues. The problem is i think you need fouling to be improved further if Po is gettig nerfed back to lrb4. Just split lrb4 DP into two skills, and then things look better

I don't think so. In a bash vs bash set up you will still take more loses against MB and claw. In essence - including mighty blow - you are hitting armour 7 and 8 players while they are hitting armour 6 players. Unless you get an upset at the start attrition will mean you are steadily outnumbered. If we are talking about two high TV teams I still think Claw teams will have the advantage and do more damage than non claw. And that has been shown by many to be the strongest correlation to popularity.

Also as has been noted hybrid teams are dependant on MBPO blitzers and the like to get an edge over ag 4 teams who otherwise simply outplay them.

It hasnt though, as it has never been tested, and the probability suggest otherwise. In the current rules it is the stacking of MB claw and PO that makes them so powerful, if you take PO out of the equation then chaos are not nearly so scary. Orcs regularly out bashed chaos in lrb4 when chaos had Claw pre nerf and RSC which was 2+ to injury. This was mainly because of the Orcs starting skills, they were more advanced and it made a difference, they had better structure to their team and because of Guard spam they could totally dominate Chaos, of course sometimes chaos would chew them up. But Orcs and Dwarves were the big hitters in lrb and Khemri and Ogres too actually. This change that martin is talkign about is moving back in that direction.

Also hybrid teams etc.. dont need PO, just make foulign good again, so everyone can hurt people and not just cpomb teams, it really is that simple. It would also stop elves spamming wrestle so much as well.

I like plasmoids suggestion as it goes back to lrb4 which in many ways is still my favourite rule set. He just needs something else to be used as a weapon for everyone, and fouling is the perfect answer imo.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think these are the numbers... feel free to challenge

So in all instances my suggestion is less lethal or the same.

But why the relative nerf to AV7?

Its a good point and made me think this through a bit further. With "Plasmoids" POMB the stats are showing what would happen if you pile on all the time, which I don't think is particularly realistic. In practice I know I'd very rarely pile onto an Av9 player to reroll armour. To get Av only rerolls PO as damaging against Av9 as my Inj only and no MB stacking, you'd need to pile on about half the time. That seems rather unlikely to me. So I think in practice my version would actually hurt Av9 more. For Av8 they work about about the same if you pile on half the time, which seems reasonable to me... and Av7 is better protected.

So I'd contend my version is:
1) For POMB better at hurting Av9 and less damaging to Av7 - meaning Orcs & Dwarves aren't relatively better off
2) Makes Av8 or above better against Claw teams - making a lot of middling Av teams less vulnerable to Claw bash without giving Av9 teams an advantage over Av8.
3) Stops Claw being a huge advantage for bash-on-bash match ups - stopping a movement away from Dwarves/Orcs to Chaos/Nurgle/Chaos Dwarves

What I can't do is work out the impact of the reduction in attrition from either set of changes. I think the more punitive spiralling expenses will help keep the top end down, and its hard to tell if the improved longevity will be enough to help middling Av teams be more competitive in long running leagues.

[Darkson]

Nah. Make it claw subtracts 2 but never takes armour below 7. That is fairer on treemen or other AV10. +AV still works vs MB.

This.

[dode74]

Its a good point and made me think this through a bit further. With "Plasmoids" POMB the stats are showing what would happen if you pile on all the time, which I don't think is particularly realistic. In practice I know I'd very rarely pile onto an Av9 player to reroll armour. To get Av only rerolls PO as damaging against Av9 as my Inj only and no MB stacking, you'd need to pile on about half the time. That seems rather unlikely to me. So I think in practice my version would actually hurt Av9 more. For Av8 they work about about the same if you pile on half the time, which seems reasonable to me... and Av7 is better protected.

If armour wasn't broken I would (and do) PO onto AV7 more often than onto AV8 or 9 either way. It's a tactical choice whatever you do, but if the decision is marginal then I am more likely to take the pop at the AV7 player. I'm not a fan of the "AV only" version for the same reason as well as the way it takes away the opportunistic PO onto the stunned player. I prefer the +1 version for the reasons stated a page back (relative reduction in injuries to AV7 compared to AV9), although I would also consider allowing it as a RR, but not allowing MB and PO to stack, ever. Claw should ALWAYS be allowed to be used on the PO reroll, otherwise the skill will be used more against the lower AV teams than the higher AV teams, which would result in the opposite effect to that desired: an increase in high AV cas relative to low AV cas.

Nah. Make it claw subtracts 2 but never takes armour below 7. That is fairer on treemen or other AV10. +AV still works vs MB.

This.

The problem with this is it makes +AV of value to AV9 players but still of relatively little value to other players. The aim is to increase attrition among the high AV players relative to the low AV players.

[legowarrior]

How about something simple, like the order in which claw and Mighty Blow are applied.

What if you have to apply Mighty Blow first, and then Claw>