Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[Chris]

nick, the point is that things get worse for AV 7 relative to AV9.

Leaving aside the damage chances posted elsewhere - what is your gut feeling that the balance of damage should be from AV 7 to AV 9. Take say Norse vs dwarves. Both sides have block so thats dealt with. Should - after both sides have tools up and I recognise the guard game is big with dwarves so they have an easier time getting 2 dice blocks, and norse have their big guy and werewolves etc, but there is a limit to what you can do... - the relative damage from blocking remain at roughly just under 3 times as many armour breaks suffered by the Norse as it would with two starting teams as the teams progress through TV?

[nick_nameless]

viewtopic.php?p=631992#p631992

my main goal of making team selection and viable tactics a bit more diverse. I suppose this would eventually be measured by how many other teams than big bash were doing well in long term league play.

Interesting.

Well, I stand by my suggestions as a nerf to some of the better combos in the game. I think the negative effect those suggestions would have on game play with bash teams would be significant.

What's funny is that in my local league the AG teams are dominant. Elves and Skaven have dominated play. Dwarves, Orcs, Nurgle, etc have done okay, but are not measuring up to the AG teams. It's going on it's third season and is not a reset league.

Different strokes for different folks, but I would resist radical change.

[dode74]

Chris - personally I think the current balance is fairly close, but that it needs to get easier for AV7 to survive relative to AV9 in order for the popularity to change (assuming that the correlation we are seeing is actually a causative one - it may not be). In turn it will need to be easier for AV9 to do things with the ball so that their win% doesn't suffer too much.

nick - understood, which is why we're trying to look at aggregated stats so that variables such as coaching ability are minimised. It may be that the agi coaches are the better coaches in your league, or it may be that they themselves are better coaches when playing agi teams; some people just get some teams. It's worth noting that my suggestion for change is less radical than yours

[koadah]

Again, a boost to Orcs and Dwarves survivability, and I simply do not understand why you want two of the most popular teams boosted and made more popular

I don't really but they seem to be the ones crying.

I'm playing zons. An apparently unpopular team. But I ain't crying.

I've never used HEs or PEs under any ruleset. I don't see why you would other than 'for a change'. They are decent teams but they just ain't sexy.

So, many of the claw boys go over to orcs/dwarves. That's more diversity right there.

I keep mentioning SWL & WIL because they put in their anti bash measures under LRB4 (or was it even 3).
That works very well.

Where are there really serious problems other than high TV Fumbbl?

The core rules are the hardest thing to get right. Each commish should tweak them to suit their own league.

[DoubleSkulls]

I'm not particularly fussed about the claw/non-claw issue. Like I said before, I think the aim is make Khemri, Amazons, HE and PE more popular at the expense of the bash and claw teams. DE, Skaven, Lizards, WE, UD, Humans and Norse (and even Necros) are roughly where we want them. Chaos, Orc, CDs, Dwarves and Nurgle are the issue. The main things all of these have in common is no A access and LOTS of S access - ranging from all of the team (Chaos) to a minimum of 9 (Orc, CD, Dwarf, Nurgle), as well as almost universal G access (except big guys). So a reduction in the number of Orc and Dwarf teams I could live with; I just don't think people will necessarily move to claw teams instead due to the reduced attrition on low AV teams making them more attractive.

I think you may be overly focussed on what needs to change to fix the current rules, and not what the consequential impact of those changes will be. If you don't change Claw too, then all the Dwarf & Orc coaches will just switch to Chaos - because Chaos is, relatively, even better at killing than it used to be. Meaning those coaches who want tough teams that can dish it out won't really have much competition, except between Chaos and Nurgle.

[dode74]

And I think that you may be overly focussed on the issue with Orcs/Dwarves vs Chaos/Nurgle being claw, or the ability of Chaos/Nurgle to deal damage being tied to it. There are other skills which have a huge impact. Horns is a mediocre skill on its own, but on Chaos (i.e. en masse) it means that ALL of your blitzes are always at ST4 as a minimum - that's a big deal. On Nurgle it is less of an issue due to the lack of mobility of the Beast and NWs and the fact that Pests are often the only capable ball handlers on the team (meaning one less killer build), but it still means that 8 or 9 of your players are capable of an ST4 blitz. Given that one of the main skills for Orcs/Dwarves is guard, and that a single player can outposition and 2d-block guard if he has an ST advantage, I can see one reason why they have a hard time.

Solutions? Adjust horns, perhaps. This one is off the top of my head, but you could make it the equivalent a version of Juggs + Dauntless (which would also work on the mino and for skaven). This would have the effect of being a low-TV buff (BD would no longer be a turnover on blitzes - you could even make it work on a block action depending on how effective you wanted it to be) and a high TV nerf to Chaos/Nurgle - take block (which people will for defensive reasons) and Juggs (and therefore horns) becomes less useful, and no more easy ST4 blitzes with anyone. Like I say, top of my head solution and probably with many holes, but it would address the issue above.

Either way, I think it is important to spot what the issue with popularity is (which I think we have) and deal with it, and then deal with any consequences for individual teams on an individual basis rather than changing an important mechanic for attrition.

[Darkson]

And I think both of you (and Plasmoid) are just obsessed.

[DoubleSkulls]

And I think both of you (and Plasmoid) are just obsessed.

He is I'm just bored

[dode74]

[spubbbba]

I'm not particularly fussed about the claw/non-claw issue. Like I said before, I think the aim is make Khemri, Amazons, HE and PE more popular at the expense of the bash and claw teams.

I don’t think the lack of popularity of the above teams has much to do with the crp ruleset itself as those 4 teams were near the bottom of tier 1 popularity in older versions.

Amazons suffer from having the dullest roster in the game, plus their ability to win games drops off drastically once other teams start getting tackle. Khemri were wrecked under crp and now have all the problems they had with lack of agility in earlier versions but now can’t even hold their own in the bash stakes. Pro and High Elves suffer as there are more effective and just plain cooler versions to use in the shape of Wood and Dark elves that have more interesting rosters and better starting stats/skills.

[plasmoid]

Hi Doubleskulls,
I'm trying hard to digest all the numbers flying around in this thread.
I tried to look at your stats for 'Mighty Blow doesn't stack' + 'PiOn ReRolls Injury Only' - I can't wrap my head around why you have stats for AV7 and then AV8+. What about AV9?

I really should have done the maths on +1/+1 Piling On earlier . It comes out almost exactly the same as my suggestion for Injury only and no MB stacking. I'm not sure I particularly like the mechanic (my original objection), but I could live it with.

I'm glad you like it. Well. At least the stats.
It would be a big deal to get the thumbs up from either you or Galak.
One thing I do like about it is that we can trust the numbers - there is no reason to guess how much anyone would go prone. Ofcourse some will also see this as a disadvantage, as they want more randomness in PiOn, not less.

But I would prefer a solution that changes just 1 skill rather than changing 2.
And I'd prefer a solution that maintains stacking, because I think it is a nice and simple rule that skills stack.
Heck, I'd rather rewrite PiOn to something that obviously can't stack (like "on a KO, place prone and roll a 4+ to convert to BH"), than just have a 'doesn't stack' clause.

I think you may be overly focussed on what needs to change to fix the current rules, and not what the consequential impact of those changes will be. If you don't change Claw too, then all the Dwarf & Orc coaches will just switch to Chaos - because Chaos is, relatively, even better at killing than it used to be.

This is where I disagree.
Like I said, being the best at something isn't necessarily decisive. People aren't migrating to Halflings because they're clearly better at TTM than gobbos .
If bash is nerfed right/enough, then being the best at it won't be game breaking. There are plenty of reasons to play orcs and dwarfs (wall of guard comes to mind) - as long as you won't get torn to shreds by chaos. As long as your team isn't carted off the field in short order, then you have other tactical responses than just standing up and blocking back.

Meaning those coaches who want tough teams that can dish it out won't really have much competition, except between Chaos and Nurgle.

Sure, if you just want to dish it out, then Chaos will be the weapon of choice.
As it always has.
Chaos has always been better at inflicting damage.
But, you seem to assume that that group of coaches is constant, whereas I believe, that if bashing is no longer an overpowered tactic, then many coaches will look elsewhere for kicks.

Cheers
Martin

Edit: PS - or to exaggerate. If Orcs could remove an opponent on 1% of their blocks, and Chaos could do so on 3%. Chaos might be 3 times better, but I don't think it would make them particularly popular.

[plasmoid]

PS, agree with Spubbbba that Amazons aren't overly exciting, and High Elves should just be renamed Bland Elves.
If High Elves were changed, then (P)Elves might feel a bit more unique.

[plasmoid]

PS
...somehow I feel like this has turned into a monster threadnap

[Pluisje]

Just to make things more complicated. What would be the effect of moving PO from a strength skill to a general skill? Not much change for Chaos et all, as they generally have GS access. Big guys would be nerfed a bit. Non-bash teams with G access would have an easy option to become a little better at bashing. This combined with any of the proposed changes to PO might have the effect you are looking for?

(I'll just go back to lurking now)

[adhansa]

Have you ever thought about moving Mutations to doubles for Chaos/Nurgle Warriors? My idea is that by this Claw will be restricted to about half of all developed warriors.
I am not sure how well it works but a sort of a "glasscannon" fanboy. I believe it is important to have some kind of mechanic to keep HighAVBash-teams at bay, but it shouldnt be at the cost of the Caw-teams just taking their position by plain destructivness. I think Claw-teams is an excellent method, but it should be allocated while retaining enough fragileness and restraint to not make Claw-teams steamroll everyone. But how to accomplish that i am not sure, my suggestion was just the first to come to mind.

On another notice I don't think strengthened fouls will counter bash even if they are using piling on. My experiense is that those teams that can divert players to foul are usually bashteams. I think with the new rules bashteams will skill 1 SG/DP player and 1 DP(/SG) player to complemment the grind and finesse-teams will more often find themself with to few players so stop it.