2k Lizardmen team skill (pag. 2)

[Axtklinge]

Hi!

This is my Lizardmen team, and its playing in a perpetual league.
Most of the games, it plays against other developed teams (similar or with even higher Team Rating).
The team has been growing very evenly, and due to their advance rolls two of the skinks are more or less the 'stars' off the team (the last ones in the list).
However, aware of how easy they may 'break', I try to build plays and distribute the SPP's between all the others too, even because the 'stars' are the primary targets for opponents (specially the one with more AG).

I have a normal skill (Agility) to give to the one with +MA, and +ST, and while the +ST was tempting me in building a "Side Step + Diving Tackle" kind of back field safety, the +MA sounds very appealing for the obvious "Sure Feet + Sprint" combo.
So far (and I mean while none of them dies in the pitch) I've been managing those two 'jobs' quite ok with the all other more regular skinks, so I can go either way without much loss for the other side...

1 Krox w/ Block,Guard
3 Saurus w/Block, Guard
2 Saurus w/Block, Break Tackle
1 Saurus w/Block, Frenzy
2 Skinks w/Side Step, Diving Tackle
1 Skink w/Side Step
1 Skink w/Catch, Diving Catch
1 Skink w/Sure Hands, +AG, Side Step, Leap (-1 AV)
1 Skink w/+ST, +MA, _____?


Any thoughts on this matter?

Cheers,
A.

Edit: Corrected a typo...

[Dr. Von Richten]

I don't understand why you have Diving Catch on three Skinks. don't you mean Diving Tackle, at least on the Side Steppers?

As for your +1 S, +1 MA Skink, even with Sprint he won't be able to do a One Turner without pushes, so I wouldn't bother (I don't like one turners anyhow). I'd probably take Side Step or Sure Feet, the former for protection, the latter to have a reliable MV 11.

[Hitonagashi]

Sidestep on the +st..useful on offense and defense, and you can give it a try for a one turner.

Usually I turn +ag skinks into one turners, with sidestep/sprint/sure feet, they are fairly reliable, but a +ma one will do just as well!

[Axtklinge]

@Dr. Von Richten: You were right, it was a typo. I ment Diving Tackle, not Diving Catch. I've corrected it now, thanks.

I've never had a 1Turn Scorer (besides TTM guys), and the way I see it there's just two problems with them (or at least from what I learn from opposing teams with them): they are prime targets for opposing blitzers or foulers, and they tend to transform in SPP's sponges...
On the other hand, they can be game winners in desperate situations, and that's something to consider too.

[RogueThirteen]

One Turn Scoring skinks take A LOT of development (ie, will consume a lot of your teams development) and then will still have to make lots of rolls (some dodges, three GFIs) that essentially mean that it's as likely this player will fall and hurt himself as it is he'll actually pull of the one-turn score.

That's putting a lot of development into a player that you likely won't field (outside of your one turn attempts) and who's eventually going to wreck himself.


Just spam Side Step / Diving Tackle on all the skinks, then maybe some Sure Feet after that.

[Axtklinge]

(...)
That's putting a lot of development into a player that you likely won't field (outside of your one turn attempts) and who's eventually going to wreck himself.(...)

That's a very good point.

I sometimes unconsciously use as comparing reference the one-turn-scorer of our league (skaven gutter-runner), but they are indeed very different creatures right off the bat: +1 MA and +1 AG different!

I guess I'll go with Side Step.
It might help him survive to see another skill.
Or not.

Thanks for your input!
Cheers,
A.

[dines]

Guess it depends on how you define one turn scorers.. As I see it, there is two different types:
- Natural one turners (Able to run the whole pitch only with the help of GFI's)
- Players you are able to do a one turn score with (Either TTM or players that can be pushed a square or two and run the remaining)

Agree with Rogue regarding the natural ones, but it's definately possible to do a one turn score with a MA+ skink and sidestep helps with that as well as general play. If he lives that long sure feet might be interesting to increase the chance of a succesful one turn score.

[garion]

Guess it depends on how you define one turn scorers.. As I see it, there is two different types:
- Natural one turners (Able to run the whole pitch only with the help of GFI's)
- Players you are able to do a one turn score with (Either TTM or players that can be pushed a square or two and run the remaining)

Agree with Rogue regarding the natural ones, but it's definately possible to do a one turn score with a MA+ skink and sidestep helps with that as well as general play. If he lives that long sure feet might be interesting to increase the chance of a succesful one turn score.

Its more than possible, its actually pretty easy with +Ma. Check my playbook on plasmoids site. It has diagrams for scoring OTT with basic players I think you only need 7 maybe 8 players to do it. +Ma just makes it a little bit easier.

[RogueThirteen]

I know that it's possible with +MA, SS, and a chain push or two. Easy? Nuffle must love you, because when I think about the stats I'd think it would require quite a bit of luck to pull it off successfully. But yea, you've compiled a great Lizardmen playbook, though you and I certainly have very different strategies when it comes to the coaching the dinosaurs.


I still don't think it's a terribly worthwhile development path. Here's what you'll need to roll, minimally, assuming a +MA, SS, Chain-Push tactic.

First, you have to pick up the ball and get it to the one-turner. Since, at this point in development, most opponents will have Kick, they're going to plant that ball deep and as away from your one-turner as possible (odds are he's set up on LOS next to one widezone, they'll kick deep back opposite corner).

This means you're looking at having one skink pick up the ball and probably make a few GFIs to Hand-Off to the one-tuner (IF you're really lucky) or to Quick Pass to another skink who will have to hand-off to the one-turner (pretty much a pipe dream now).

Then, you've got to throw 1 or 2 two-die Blocks and get pushes (also assuming opponent's line doesn't have 3x Stand Firm/SS. If I'm setting up to defend against a one-turn threat, SF and SS take the line, even if it means putting 3 Snots on the line. Lots of teams like SS and SF.).

Then, you're one-turner has to probably make three dodges (assuming your opponent still has an 8-person defense) and two GFIs.

Pretty much best-case scenario (one skink picks up and can get to one-turner without any GFIs):
Pick-Up the Ball: 4/6 Chance
2D Block with Push: 8/9 Chance
2D Block with Push: 8/9 Chance
Hand-Off: 4/6 Chance
Dodge: 4/6 (skill Reroll)
Dodge: 4/6 "
Dodge: 4/6 "
GFI: 5/6
GFI: 5/6

That's pretty much the best case scenario, and even with a Team Reroll ready to go the odds of success are less than 12%. Factor in that five of those rolls are things which can result in the one-turner getting hurt if failed, and it loses even more of it's appeal.

Now, assuming pick-up skink can't get all the way to one-turner, then factor in a (Pass & Catch) and the chance of success plummets.

The one-turner could be developed to greatly increase the chances (Catch, Sure Feet, Sprint) but at that point you're really committing a lot of eggs to one stunty basket.


For me, that's far too much development into one player for a rather gimmicky and unreliable tactic. At that level of development, I'd rather have all the skinks with SS & DT, at which point you shouldn't need to do a one-turn because if things are going reasonably well you're opponent either simply cannot score or has to score much faster than they would like.

[Hitonagashi]

It *heavily* depends on league composition.

You appear to be playing in an elf-dominated league. For example, if you take the FUMBBL box, I'd guess that whatever TV, 3x SS or SF, and or kick appear in less than 5% of my games. Kick just isn't useful to bashers, so it's rarely taken by them. As a result, I one turn attempt every chance I get.

It requires 2 blocks to get a +ma sidestep skink into range. You are using saurii, so that's 1x2d, and 1x3d(unless they put their mummies on the LOS, which is rare).

In addition, when I pull this, I usually use a +ag instead of a +ma(and if I have a +ma, use it for handoff). +ag, sidestep, sprint, sure feet is my usual development path, as they also are excellent ball carriers in regular play, and hence fielded on offense and defense.

When you do...this changes to:
Pickup: 4/6
2D with push: 5/9 (usually use a RR here, and you made a mistake in your calculations I believe...you can't use a pow or pow/push on this one!)
3d with push: 19/27
3d with push: 26/27 (odds are good if you pow here, as it removes a TZ for the handoff)
Handoff: 5/6
Dodge: 5/6 (with dodge)
Dodge: 5/6 ""
Dodge: 5/6 ""
GFI: 5/6 (hopefully with sure feet rr)
GFI: 5/6 ""
GFI: 5/6 ""

I haven't the time to work out the exact pattern, but I've successfully oneturned quite frequently. It's a staple part of my anti-chaos strategies...the fall back plan. You can do it with 5-6 players.

The vast majority of the fail chance here is in the pickup and in the sequence of blocks needing a push (I once worked it out to about 70%+ of the risk). The only way for your skink to kill himself is to roll 2 1's on the dodge stage or in the GFI stage, and he takes more risk than that every time he sets up to be rocked on kickoff!

[DoubleSkulls]

I still don't think it's a terribly worthwhile development path. Here's what you'll need to roll, minimally, assuming a +MA, SS, Chain-Push tactic.

Even if you only manage it one game in 10, that's still quite a few extra TDs and probably league points.

The key point being the development path for it isn't that far off what you'd want and has plenty of value in open play too.

[spubbbba]

Well I think the argument was for SS as it is useful all the time and as a bonus helps make 1 turning a little more likely. Since the skink already has MA9 then you only need 2 pushes, though with a Frenzy saurus and SS you have a better shot at getting 3 or more.

He has a sure hands AG4 skink so picking up the ball isn’t too hard and he is an ok passer. Catch would help with 1 turning and receiving hand offs but I think there are better choices. Sprint is a bit of a waste without sure feet, though sure feet would be a decent choice if he lives to get another normal skill if you don’t want to risk him using DT.

[garion]

I dont agree that everyone will have Kick, I rarely see kick taken anywhere, both TT and online. Though I do value it my self when playing with elves, slann and Skaven, but no other races. But I do agree I wouldnt make a player specficially for this purpose, I said as much in the play book.

But Side Step is the first skill i give to most skinks anyway, its not really going out of the way. I give some skinks DT first then SS. But yeah, those for me are the only two non double skills that are worthwhile and +Ma is always great on a skink, that equals the movement of a Gutter Runner and we all know how easy it is to get OTT with them.

[Axtklinge]

Just to add some data on the "Kick" subject, in the league I play, within 10 to 12 teams there's two or maybe three teams with a kick player.
However that may be justified by the rather bashy tendency of the league...

[RogueThirteen]

Wow, very different environment from my own. In full disclosure, I only play tabletop and play in a local league (which ranges between 8-13 teams a season) and has a finite season length of about 10-15 games, though teams can return, which has been for running for about four seasons.

I'd say Kick appears on about 3/4 of the teams (pretty much on everyone except Dwarves, Orcs, Khemri, etc. -- but all the more reason for everyone else to take Kick since it is so ace against these sorts of opponents). I find it useful against most opponents, if for no other reason than you can stick the ball away from their preferred ball-carrier (+AG/SureHands/+STR/whatever) which can sometimes force a less than optimal pick-up and hand-off (any roll you can force your opponent to make is a good thing!) or puts the ball in the hand of their less-than-optimal carrier or slows them down an entire turn as they position to grab the ball with their optimal carrier.


Nevertheless, I agree Side Step is the way to go (I'd make it first skill on most skinks regardless), but I wouldn't spend any team development in making this guy a better one-turner (eg Catch, Sprint, Sure Feet).