Wrestle on Necro Wolves

[Smeborg]

I am considering giving Wrestle as first normal skill to the Wolves on the Necro team. Juggernaut on doubles.

I well understand the attraction of Block/Claw/M-Blow/P-On on these guys, but my experience suggests that a strategy which relies on waiting for doubles rolls on players usually fails (unless there are lots of said players, say 6-10). Also, considered from the perspective of the wider game, damage skills on an agile MA8 player are not always ideal (whereas on a slow player, e.g. Chaos Dwarf, they seem to sit perfectly).

Wrestle+Frenzy has an outstanding success rate for downing players (compared to Block/Frenzy), since only a double skull prevents an immediate result or second block. For 2-dice blocks:

- vs. Block it is 11/12 compared to 20/27 (92% to 74%);

- vs. Blodge it is 85/108 compared to 55/108 (79% to 51%).

Giving Wrestle to the Wolves seems to me to solve at one stroke the otherwise difficult development problems of this team. Role definition would be sharply defined:

- Wolves = ball hunters/crowd surfers (Claw damage is a bonus rather than a core part of their role)
- Golems and Wights = blockers/guarders/killers
- Ghouls = ball handlers
- Zombies = Linos

This seems to me to be a better match with each player type than other systems which I have seen or tried. Giving the Wolves Wrestle would mean you could give Guard to the Wights first (in other systems I prefer Tackle on them). Giving Guard to the Wights first means you could delay giving Guard to the Golems, say: Block, M-Blow first, meaning they would skill up better (a common problem solved).

I like the idea, it remains to try it out in practice. I may start to do so tomorrow. Environment: friendly, long-running tabletop league which usually has great racial variety, early results matter. I am indebted to a fellow coach in our league for the suggestion, first put forward as a tournament idea (which I think would also work well). I already like Wrestle on Witch Elves, which works well for me.

Comments most welcome, especially from anyone who has tried the idea. Be nice.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think Wolves need Block more than Witch Elves do because Witches have Jump Up, AG4 and dodge, so are effectively a lot harder to tie down and don't get penalised for lying down.

Also DEs start with 4 block, where Necros start with 2. So the reliable hitting against Block-less players is important.

On top of which the Wolves are often the ball carriers, where Wrestle is a liability.

The good news is that Wolves skill up quickly so getting Block and Wrestle for late development is easy to do.

[garion]

+1 DS has really hit the nail on the head.

If you really want a Wrestle Stripper type player, the Ghoul is perfect for the job. Build one as a ball carrier with SH Blodge. the other as wrestle, strip, SS. Though he probably wont live very long

[Magictobe]

First skill I give is dodge. Nothing to do with getting ball carrier down but it gives you mobility to get to the ball carrier AND getting those players in the audience.

If he carriers a ball, he will stand more on its feet.

So dodge for me.

[DoubleSkulls]

Dodge 2nd for me. Generally I'll feed the wolves 2 TDs to get them Block, then try to skill up the wights and ghouls. By then the Wolves normally have Dodge anyway.

[swilhelm73]

If you are talking about a young team, giving your wolves wrestle early will lead to you facing plenty of targets who don't have block yet - basically wasting your wrestle pick.

Also, wolves are major foul targets, the less time on the ground the better.

[Smeborg]

I hear the objections loud and clear, and even agree with them. However, for me the pros outweigh the cons, in theory at least. The main benefit I see is the achievement of a quick and harmonious development for this team, which I have always found previously to pose well nigh insoluble development problems. Only one way to find out...

My team, Puppy Love, had its debut yesterday, and did well with 2 wins against Gobbos and DEs. Both match-ups felt in favour of the Necros, and although I played well enough, I also had the rub of the green. The first puppy skilled up in the first game, I gave him Wrestle. It worked once in the second game - at the critical point in the 8-turn first drive, with no RRs left to either team, the puppy blitzed and downed a threatening DE Blitzer, keeping him from attacking the spilled ball. Of the 4 dice, 3 were pushes. Only one instance, I know, but it gives a warm feeling. A Wight has Guard, the lone Ghoul has a TD, both MVPs fell on Zombies, I got enough winnings to buy the second puppy after the 2nd game, along with a free Zombie. Only one Ghoul to buy now for a complete 14-man roster. A bit of a dream start in development terms.

I'll let you know how I get on - will likely be a while before I next report.

All the best.

[Chris]

How many times did the wrestle wolf fail to knock someone down due to having wrestle?

[Smeborg]

How many times did the wrestle wolf fail to knock someone down due to having wrestle?

Not once that I remember, Chris (but I do not pretend that my memory is perfect). I deployed him in a sweeper/full-back/safety role where his main job was to take critical blitzes (if a Wolf is tied up in blocking wars, you are wasting a 120,000 MA8 piece on a Zombie's job IMO). In the critical drive (all of first half) he sacked the ball carrier (second die of a 1-die blitz for Frenzy, possibly re-rolled, I can't remember, I think it also needed 2 GFIs), and wrestled the DE Blitzer to the ground as outlined above on the following turn. On the next turn he provided an assist for a crowd-surf by a Wight (amusing role reversal, the surfed DE Blitzer also died...), then escorted the ball upfield for a turn 8 TD by one of the Wights, same one i think (not without luck, some GFIs without RR succeeded).

I don't have as good a memory of the second half, where I had a numbers advantage (3 men up and growing). I took few blocks or blitzes with the Wolf, mostly he was a cage corner (!). It was quite a good role for him in case any of the multiple cage-breaking attempts by the increasingly desperate DEs succeeded. They all failed, although the Blitzers kept getting next to the ball carrier (the Wight who scored the first TD).

Note however that the Wolf was not my ball carrier of choice for either drive in this game due to his Wrestle. This did slow down my ball movement for sure, and might have cost me a TD compared to giving the ball to the Wolf. At the same time, in the scramble, the combination of a Block ball carrier (Blodge Ghoul in future, obviously) and a Wrestle/Frenzy player riding shotgun worked well.

I will think about a schematic way to record successes/failures of Wrestle on these puppies in each game, but I suspect it's not quite as simple as it seems.

All the best and good question.

P.S. Although it is very early days in this experiment, I suspect that Wrestle on Wolves might be outstanding in some tourney formats.

[Ullis]

To me this sounds like a suboptimal way of utilising the wolves.

First off, you can't get around the fact that Claws is a wonderful hitting skill. Just one double and you've got Claws+MB+Frenzy which makes an excellent killer. Every team except dwarves will have players without Block you could kill easier with Block yourself. Even without doubles Claws is nice because it still makes a big difference to odds of breaking armour against orcs and dwarves.

Second, keeping the wolves on their feet is essential because they're so fast and with Dodge they get as mobile as is possible on a necro team.

Third, a ghoul would fit the same role perfectly. Wrestle and Tackle on a ghoul is just two skills and then you'd have a mobile safety right there. You get two ghouls on the team anyway and one is enough for ball handling duties (what else can they get besides Sure Hands?).

[DoubleSkulls]

Mate... I think you need to decide whether you are asking for opinions or just providing a blog like "this is what I tried and this is how its working".

Against unskilled opponent Block will give you a extra Av roll every 7/36 blocks (so just better than 1/6).

Against an opponent with dodge you get an extra Av roll every 4th block.

The other advantage of block on a frenzy player is that it gives you a better chance of avoiding having to push if you don't really want to - and can still dodge away.

[vaccine]

Seems a waste when you can make 1 of your ghouls Wrestle/Strip Ball/Tackle pretty easily and save that Claw for getting people off the field. But you seem to have made up your mind.

[Warpstone]

The other advantage of block on a frenzy player is that it gives you a better chance of avoiding having to push if you don't really want to - and can still dodge away.

Great point. I don't think this can be overstated. Wolves are not vulnerable when prone just because they're perfect for fouling. They're also perfect targets when their second block carries them into harm's way. This happens even more often if they're built to be your ace wrestler.

Smeborg, a wrestling wolf would indeed be ideal in a tourny, but in a league where fouling is opportunistic and frequent (as it should be), I don't think it's wisest. Save a ghoul for wrackle, focus instead on keeping a WW alive and mobile. I'm sure it can work, but any worthy opponent with 40kgp linemen knows exactly how to deal with a prone superstar...

[Smeborg]

I have not made up my mind except in so far as that I think the idea is worth testing in practice. What happens on the field will decide my mind, as with all development ideas that I have. I also rarely adopt a new development idea unless I have also tried the main alternative.

It is interesting that no one so far on this thread appears to have tried out the idea, even in a tourney. I was hoping to get some practical input of that kind, as you will see from the OP.

For my money, the Necro Wolves are like some other Blitzer types in BB who start without Block (e.g. Slann Blitzers, Pestigors) where you have to decide whether they are (a) ball hunters or (b) Blitzers designed to cause damage. I am open minded, it seems that many of these player types can excel in either role (but of course not in both). I also feel there is a tendency to over-commit Wolves to the scrum, when they rather like to range free. This is a not unusual dichotomy in BB: cause damage or attack the ball.

All the best.

[Digger Goreman]

On the one hand, I agree with the Block/keep up crowd... it's what I'd do....

On the other paw: Give him Jump Up next? Hmmmm....