Wrestle on Necro Wolves

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Digger. I was thinking of Jump Up at some point, but it's hard to give it as second skill, I was thinking of the more orthodox Dodge first.

I'll wait and see how the puppies perform on the field first.

Certainly at 4 skills: Wrestle, Dodge, Jump Up, Sidestep (not sure of the order), they look (in theory) quite interesting. There might well be a certain reluctance to block them, depending on the set-up.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Block is so superior it makes wrestle not worth consideration.

[Hitonagashi]

Thanks, Digger. I was thinking of Jump Up at some point, but it's hard to give it as second skill, I was thinking of the more orthodox Dodge first.

I'll wait and see how the puppies perform on the field first.

Certainly at 4 skills: Wrestle, Dodge, Jump Up, Sidestep (not sure of the order), they look (in theory) quite interesting. There might well be a certain reluctance to block them, depending on the set-up.

Not sure about wrestle/sidestep. Blodge SS works cos he's a pain to shift...wrestle sidestep means that the random dude who is blocking him will just put an extremely expensive piece on the ground.

If you do go the wrestle route, go all the way and add strip ball/tackle before Sidestep.

[Smeborg]

But Wrestle/Frenzy is so good at downing players that Tackle and/or Strip Ball seem overkill.

[Smeborg]

Some clarifications:

(1) When I made the OP, I was hoping for experience-based feedback from one or two coaches who had tried Wrestle, either on Wolves, or on analagous player types (for example, I recall a coach singing the praises of Wrestle/Claw on Pestigors on this forum). Had such feedback been received, and been negative, I might well have decided to go with Block. In the absence of such feedback, I decided to make the experiment (there was a deadline, being the start of the league).

(2) I was expecting the negative feedback from the many coaches who like Bliock/M-Blow. Indeed I had rehearsed most, if not all, of their arguments before I made the OP. I was hoping that one or two of them might have tried Wrestle, if only briefly.

(3) I regard the Necro team as very difficult to develop, having 4 pairs of specialists all looking for roles. While it is relatively easy to map out a development path for one player type, I have previously found it very hard to come up with a scheme in which all the paths make a satisfying team whole. Something always seems to go missing. In all other respects I like this team a lot.

(4) I play in a mixed open tabletop league, and can expect all races (roughly) to be equally represented. We do not match-make by TV. Thus this team is unlikely to face the problem of high player turnover associated with some on-line perpetual environments.

(5) Hiring and firing players until I get doubles (or stat increases) does not appeal to me, and this practice has so far not been followed in our league. My own anecdotal experience of waiting for doubles on specialist players is that they simply do not come.

(6) Wrestle on the Wolves is an attempt at accelerated player development (not just the Wolves), clearer role definition (for all players), and more harmonious team development (all things that I have struggled with in the past). Note that Frenzy+Wrestle is better at bringing down a Blocker or Blodger than Frenzy+Block+Tackle. It is as good as Wrestle+Tackle on a player without Frenzy. It frees the Wights to take Tackle later (normally I would give it to them as first skill). With the Wights taking Guard as first skill instead, it frees the Golems to go Block, M-Blow instead of Block, Guard (thus accelerating their development). The Ghouls will be developed as specialist ball-handlers (Runners), one for offense only (he will sit out the defense, being replaced by a Kick Zombie). Based on my experience with and against the Necros, this looks like it ought to be a high performance recipe for the team. But of course only time and results will tell.

Hope that helps.

[Ullis]

(5) Hiring and firing players until I get doubles (or stat increases) does not appeal to me, and this practice has so far not been followed in our league. My own anecdotal experience of waiting for doubles on specialist players is that they simply do not come.

I think you're reading too much into the Block camps argument here. Wolves become extraordinary even without doubles due to their starting skills and skill access. Block has much utility besides being coupled with MB.

But Wrestle and MB do not really stack all that well. And you can't argue that Claw+MB+Frenzy+Block isn't a powerful combination. It strikes fear into your AV9 opponents for a good reason. By taking Block you're leaving the door open to getting great value from doubles. If you don't roll doubles, then you can still enjoy your blodger sidestepping wolf who's a menace of the sidelines. Working the sidelines is another thing that Block is much better at.

[vaccine]

I don't think many or any will have tried it because it's not a great idea. If WW were your only fast player it would be a different story, but you've also got Ghouls with an impressive MV7 so I see sticking Wrestle on a WW as going towards negating his base Claw, lowering his value.

I know you keep saying it's to get yourself a ball chaser but as I said you've already got two ghouls who fill that role perfectly without wasting one of your only two claw players on it. When I say waste, by taking Wrestle you're:
- Reducing chances he injures someone on a block/blitz.
- Reducing chances he injures someone when defending a block/blitz.
- Increasing the amount of time your most expensive piece spends on the floor.
- Severely decreasing his mobility by him being prone frequently, not to mention he's a very tempting foul target.
- Reducing his ball carrying ability.
- Reducing the volume of blocks he can make, both by limiting him to having to stand up each turn to blitz and by having him much easier to down reducing his number of normal blocks he can make.

For positives you're gaining:
- Ability to down Block players.
- ?

Even if you're blitzing a ball carrier with him without Wrestle, you can normally use Frenzy to negotiate him into a bad position or another block if you fail to down him. Ghouls are perfect for the ball chaser role. They already come with Dodge so only really need two skill ups to get Wrestle/Tackle, not to mention Dodge is handy for getting to the ball carrier. They're a less valuable piece so you care less when they're on the floor.

You don't need a double to make a WW an excellent player. My Block/Dodge/Sidestep (4th skill to come soon) is still amazing at getting the ball carrier. He's tough to down, Side Step keeps him in contact and block keeps him on his feet. He doesn't need Wrestle because even against a Block ball carrier he fails to down, he can push him to a better position for further blocks or force the ball carrier to try blitz a Blodge/Sidestep player or make multiple dodges against the sideline.


I'm nearing the end of a second season with my Necros and the WW are the star, taking Wrestle on them isn't needed. I'm currently playing with no Wrestle due to a death but previously I just needed 1 ghoul with it. I have 1 ghoul as Blodge/Sure Hands for carrying and had one as Wrestle/Tackle/Strip Ball to get it off people. It worked really well. My WW are going Blodge/Side Step and then probably tackle, doubles aside (one is Blodge/SS and one is just blodge). My FG have been slow to skill up so one is just block at the moment whilst the other is +str, I think I'll try a touch back on the +str one next time I get it, maybe even High Kick. The Wights build themselves I think, I got lucky with +str on one and then guard for second skill, the other is guard/tackle. My blitz tend to come from WW and ghouls only, Wights are just for support. I don't see much trouble in developing their roles, the SPP tend to come quite frequently with the ease of scoring touch downs with Werwolves and Ghouls (making skilling up new ones easy), the only slight trouble I've had is with the FGs, one didn't get a single SPP for 9 games despite never leaving the field, prior to them having block I tended to very rarely block with them as they were more valuable stood up and road blocking than risking a knock down.

As for firing non-double players I don't really see a Werewolf as the sort of player that you need to do that with. Maybe if you were so far ahead of everyone in the league you could afford to lose a veteran WW but normally I'd say no. In fact I don't think I'd really do it with any Necros.

At the end of the day you can take whatever you like. But I don't feel Wrestle fits well with Claw and it will stunt the players growth for the reasons above.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, vaccine, for a long and eloquent post. I don't know yet whether I will be happy with Wrestle, I have experimented with Wrestle on other teams, sometimes it has worked well, sometimes I have shown to my satisfaction that it is a poor choice. I think the community as a whole is still in the early days of coming to terms with the skill.

[TheDoc]

Hi Smeborg,

I think you are over thinking the wrestle here and I would use a Ghoul for the role you are putting your wolves in.

My reasons are similar to the others but I would emphasise:
(1) You don't want your Wolves on the floor during an opponents turn as they are foul magnets. Block keeps them on their feet and allows you to utilise the MA8 fully (especially when you get dodge).
(2) Block allows the development to go quicker. Against non-block players you will increase your cas count very quickly with claws.
(3) If you use them as ball carriers (I know some people shy away from this role-I personally love having a MA8 Blodge ball handler) block gives only a 18% chance of knockdown whilst you are on offense.

I would agree with Juggernaut I can see the use of it but surely the optimum skill when rolling a double is MB and Claws!! You can diversify the wolves one juggernaut for crowd surfs and the other a killer with MB, but at the same time if you roll 2 doubles on one wolf you could take both and have a fantastic player. However I will point out MB will get you the SPP quicker to get to the next level for Juggernaut.

I think it's great to experiment with wrestle but against a bash team you will find out how much you will miss that block skill and if the opponent is particularly nasty you'll be fouled repeatedly after you "wrestle" his both down result.

Wrestle is the main reason I have problems with Wilhelm Chaney. He'd be great with block without it he is a foul magnet when he hits the floor every five seconds.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

If you take MB there is no way you can take Juggs over Piling On !!!!
Seriously the best thing a Wolf can get is PO MB so you can't afford to waste a double on Juggs untill you already have POMB but even then there are loads of good normal rolls for you to use.
And taking Block is a no-brainer. I can see the point of wretle on one in a tournament, but definitely not in a league team.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Jimmy. I incline to the view that if something is worthwhile in a tournament setting, it may also be worth considering in the right league.

All the best.

[DoubleSkulls]

In really long leagues there is no reason you can't take both...

[Smeborg]

In really long leagues there is no reason you can't take both...

Agreed, but we're probably talking 5th or 6th skill here for the combo.

[Smeborg]

After a short experiment - just 4 games, I have concluded that Wrestle is not great on the Werewolf, so I have terminated the experiment by firing him. Out of 4 matches with the skill:

- Wrestle gave me the win in one match (vs. rookie DEs). Rather good against ball-carriers with Block only, especially on 1-die blocks.

- Wrestle was weak in a loss to Lizzies. Against both the Saurus and the Skinks, Block would have been better.

- Wrestle did not come into play against Chaos, where I lost due to suffering 5-0 CAS. Block would not have made any difference. Both Wolves went into the dugout early.

- Wrestle was not as good as Block would have been against Amazons, but probably made no difference to the result (a lucky 1-1 draw). But it did not feel good.

The most frustrating is against players with Dodge but lacking Block (quite common in BB), where obviously Block is better. Second, but less common, is the reduced opportunities to bring Claw into play (against high AV players lacking Block). Third is rarest but very crucial when a Wolf is carrying the ball or in Receiver position. But there have been times when Wrestle has worked a treat (mainly when sacking the ball carrier, or exposing him for the sack). But on balance it does not feel right.

The team (Puppy Love) seems a bit cursed - the curse of Wrestle, no doubt - as they fail every Regen roll on Permanent Injuries. So I'm carrying 3 cripples on the roster at the moment (Golem -1AV, Wight niggle, Zombie -AV).

Quite an interesting experiment, though. I also tried Wrestle briefly on both Bull Centaurs on the CD team a year or so ago (after Break Tackle). Admittedly a bit extreme, it was fun, but also a failed experiment.

So far the most outstanding use of Wrestle for me in leagues has been on the following players:

- All 4 Catchers on the Elf team, in combination with initial Dodge (and subsequently Tackle).

- 3 Pestigors on the Nurgle team, in combination with Horns (and subsequently Fend, Tackle).

No doubt there are others, but I do not claim sufficient experience with Wrestle on other teams.

All the best and thanks for all prior comments.

[dines]

Cool with the feedback and props for testing seemingly crazy stuff on the field.