dwarves dwarfed in perpetual formats?

[Heff]

Im not the biggest fan of dwarves because they get boring after a while

AFTER A WHILE!

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Im not the biggest fan of dwarves because they get boring after a while

AFTER A WHILE!

I think Garion means about 3 turns.

Chaos Dwarfs are not a good choice for a new player, they are similar to Humans in that sometimes they are the pigeon but sometimes they are the statue. However it takes some skill to pilot CD's when they are in the tough match ups.
I would say Orcs for a new player. They really are easymode still untill everyone has Clawpomb in TV based MM.

[JaM]

I'd reccomend High Elves then. Decent armour and speed, can handle the ball very well, good catchers and blitzers. Bit expensive, but after an apo he should be good.
Or Dark Elves, but getting the witch 'doing her thing' well requiers some tactics too.

Still, if you have that many teams, I'd still say Orcs. A new player with Orcs isnt that bad, and it will learn him the game quite fast. After that he might switch to ... wel, whatever. '
'
Nurgle? I'd NEVER reccomend that to a new player. It's not a good starting team (i.e. you have to learn to play the game, and start with a fresh team).
I think it's one of the more difficult teams to 'get', maybe apart from slann.

Undead? Decent players, everyone has a clearly defined 'role' in the team, good bashers and runners.

[dines]

I'd reccomend High Elves then. Decent armour and speed, can handle the ball very well, good catchers and blitzers. Bit expensive, but after an apo he should be good.
Or Dark Elves, but getting the witch 'doing her thing' well requiers some tactics too.

Still, if you have that many teams, I'd still say Orcs. A new player with Orcs isnt that bad, and it will learn him the game quite fast. After that he might switch to ... wel, whatever. '
'
Nurgle? I'd NEVER reccomend that to a new player. It's not a good starting team (i.e. you have to learn to play the game, and start with a fresh team).
I think it's one of the more difficult teams to 'get', maybe apart from slann.

Undead? Decent players, everyone has a clearly defined 'role' in the team, good bashers and runners.

Agree regarding orcs, nurgle and undead. High elves are probably easier than dark elves for newbies because they have more defined roles and it's easier to grasp than the running style of the darkies.

[Aliboon]

Dwarves are a good team certainly, but not one I'd wanna start with if I was a newbie, far too sloooooow, easy to pull out of position and hard to put back if the opo knows what they're doing. I can see then being very frustrating for a noob tbh.

Better to go for humans or High Elves imo, much quicker, reasonable armour and pretty easy to score with.

[Coach Grievous]

I'm just flat out gonna say that if you can't make dwarves exceedingly competitive in a league you are a bad player, unless
a) the one-dimensional bash play does not appeal to you at all
b) you are facing a continual onslaught of ClawPOMB teams

That said, I think that really says a lot about whether they are a good fit for a beginner, except sometimes it's difficult to say what type of game-play a newbie coach will like. Dwarves are good because they are a very "training wheels" type of approach to learning bash, but it will be very one dimensional.

Sure, they don't rebound from making mistakes very well, but that very thing teaches you to not make mistakes! Which is the type of grinding, careful, thought-out play where dwarves excel.

It don't think there really is a great beginner team out there that is good at teaching both bash and agile play in that manner (and if there were, they would probably be very OP), so I'm not sure that is much of a problem. Considering from a learning dimension, often the bash and agile departments are learned separately. Dwarves are great for learning bash basics. Orcs, too. Any elf team shines for agility, of course. Note that I'm not saying a beginner can't make a versatile team - lessay like the dark elves (or humans) - work, if they quickly grok the game and are good players overall. They sure can.

Caveat. Dwarves do get less potent as TR increases, I would still have to agree with that sentiment. Different teams have different "effectiveness multipliers" at different TR values. This is especially, but not entirely restricted, to the prevalence of ClawPOMBs. They don't suddenly stop being a tier one team, though.

TLDR: They are a great team if you like winning with slow, grinding bash.

[Gaixo]

I have never seen an inexperienced coach do well with dwarves. Granted, I've only seen four or five of them try, but the point stands. I think it can be hard for a beginner to understand/accept that they have to ignore half of what the game has to offer (passing, dodging, outrunning an opponent ever).

[swilhelm73]

I would still have to agree with that sentiment. Different teams have different "effectiveness multipliers" at different TR values. This is especially, but not entirely restricted, to the prevalence of ClawPOMBs.

I'd argue this is more of a stat and skill effectiveness effect.

A dwarven longbeard, absent stat increases, maximizes at lvl3 either:

4/3/2/8: Block, Tackle, TS, Guard, MB or
4/3/2/8: Block, Tackle, TS, MB, PO

Grab, Frenzy or SF aren't useless, but they aren't as valuable as Guard or MB

Comparatively a beastman can generally keep taking highly effective skills due to better base stats, fewer starting skills, and better skill access.

Looking at the progression of a killer (to compare to the second dwarven build above) still with no dubs or stat increases:

6/3/3/8: Horns, Block, MB, Claw, PO

The BM can continue to take maximal skills to lvl5 at least.

But this isn't just true of killers. Compare a guard focused player:

DW LB:
4/3/2/8: Block, TS, Tackle, Guard, SF, MB (lvl4)

CH CW:
5/4/3/9: Block, Guard, SF, MB, FA (lvl6)

Or even a ball carrier

DW RU:
6/3/3/8: SH, TS, Block, Fend (lvl3)

CH BM
6/3/3/8: Horns, SH, Block, Fend, EA, Big Hand, FA (lvl7)

[DoubleSkulls]

Dauntless is also a good 3rd/4th pick for Longbeards since it helps you take on the teams with lots of S4, without committing the Troll Slayers to the scrum.

[garion]

Disagree completely. Why would you need dauntless on Dwarf Longbeards???

You already start with two Dauntless players if you are thinking 3rd or 4th skill on a Dwarf then you should have built your entire team up to have Guard on every player by then anyway. So you should never need any help dealing with St4 teams.

Building Dwarves is easy albeit a bit dull and they are one of very few teams that can actually make good use of the crappy skills Fend and KoR. Just go like this on all your players -

Longbeard - Guard, MB, then either Fend or PO, (doubles Diving Tackle in league or Dodge in online Match Maker or Black Box setting)
Troll Slayer - MB, PO, Guard Tackle, Fend (Jump Up or Side Step in League, or Jump Up or Dodge in Match Maker or Black Box)
Blitzer - MB, Guard, Tackle, PO, Fend (Dodge Double)
Runner - Block, Tackle, Fend, Kick Off Return (Dodge Double)

It is that simple and just build in this exact way, you dont need any other skills than those. Boring yes, but stupidly effective.

[Hitonagashi]

Just as a point Garion, agree with what you are saying, but Juggernaut on a Slayer isn't bad. The ability to get a second block if you get bothdowns on a blitz on important players is quite nice for them.

[garion]

aye true juggs is again a reasonable pick in league, though not in Blackbox or MM where it is pretty much just a waste of TV.

[Heff]

Disagree completely. Why would you need dauntless on Dwarf Longbeards???

You already start with two Dauntless players if you are thinking 3rd or 4th skill on a Dwarf then you should have built your entire team up to have Guard on every player by then anyway. So you should never need any help dealing with St4 teams.

Building Dwarves is easy albeit a bit dull and they are one of very few teams that can actually make good use of the crappy skills Fend and KoR. Just go like this on all your players -

Longbeard - Guard, MB, then either Fend or PO, (doubles Diving Tackle in league or Dodge in online Match Maker or Black Box setting)
Troll Slayer - MB, PO, Guard Tackle, Fend (Jump Up or Side Step in League, or Jump Up or Dodge in Match Maker or Black Box)
Blitzer - MB, Guard, Tackle, PO, Fend (Dodge Double)
Runner - Block, Tackle, Fend, Kick Off Return (Dodge Double)

It is that simple and just build in this exact way, you dont need any other skills than those. Boring yes, but stupidly effective.

And people ask why I hate them

[Aliboon]

Longbeard - Guard, MB, then either Fend or PO, (doubles Diving Tackle in league or Dodge in online Match Maker or Black Box setting)
Troll Slayer - MB, PO, Guard Tackle, Fend (Jump Up or Side Step in League, or Jump Up or Dodge in Match Maker or Black Box)
Blitzer - MB, Guard, Tackle, PO, Fend (Dodge Double)
Runner - Block, Tackle, Fend, Kick Off Return (Dodge Double)

What no Stand Firm?

[Hitonagashi]

Longbeard - Guard, MB, then either Fend or PO, (doubles Diving Tackle in league or Dodge in online Match Maker or Black Box setting)
Troll Slayer - MB, PO, Guard Tackle, Fend (Jump Up or Side Step in League, or Jump Up or Dodge in Match Maker or Black Box)
Blitzer - MB, Guard, Tackle, PO, Fend (Dodge Double)
Runner - Block, Tackle, Fend, Kick Off Return (Dodge Double)

What no Stand Firm?

Personal preference. Fend if you face a lot of chaos, SF if you face a lot of elves.