Rookie Orc player seeking advice

[Hegel]

Now that I have played a couple of matches in a mini test league, I got tons of questions, even more than before the first matches. I´ve been reading a lot of articles here and on bbtactics, so the basics are kind of covered. I´m playing the tabletop Blood Bowl, if that matters. I hope I´ll find some answers from aexperienced coaches here. Not all questions are Orc specific, but some may be.

1. Roster, skills and team development
I started with 4 BOBs, 4 Blitzers, 2 Line Orks, 1 Thrower and 3 RR. 2 Blitzers have skilled up, one with Frenzy, one with Guard. One Line Ork got Block. I´m planning to buy another Line Ork ant then an Apo. Is that OK so far ? I mainly play against bashy teams line Nurgle and Chaos Dwarf, but we´re about to start a short league with more teams (Necromantics, High Elves, Humans, Chaos Dwarves, Nurgle and my Orcs confirmed, maybe one or two more). I´ll relaunch my Orcs from scratch for that league, so I´ve got a chance to correct any mistakes I´ve already made. The biggest difficulty seems to be skilling up the BOBs, it´s kind of unlikely that they score TD´s, or complete passes, so the only chance is a 1/11 for MVP and the odd casualty they might cause...

2. Defense setup
I´ve read interesting articles about something called "ziggurat" only today and realised that I completely buggered my first setups... is the ziggurat and its variation the preferred method for defense setups ? Are there race (Orc specific considerations ? When my opponent scored I usually had holes in my defense and his fastest players sneaked through, escaping my defense using lots of go for its. Guess with a deeper defense line this will be better.

3. Offense setups
Are there similar considerations as for defense setups ? I usually try to throw as many blocks against the defense and build a cage as early as possible, centering my thrower to pick up the ball. That usually works fine, and when receiving I usually manage to get a cage going. Nevertheless, most of the time it gets stuck, so maybe my cage isn´t effective or too slow, or... ? Which leads me to....

4. Scoring
Biggest problem I have really is actually scoring. Most of the times my cage gets stuck on the way, or the only chance I see is going for it just with the thrower or a blitzer. I tend not to use passes, as I don´t have a skilled catcher and because of bad dice I mostly run aout of rerolls early. ANY advice here is welcome !

5. Digital formats
For training sessions, would you rather recommend FUMBBL or the Cyanide game (I got legendary edition but only gave it a very short try up to now). I tried to watch some replays on FUMBBL, but most of the ones I found are with high TV teams and tons of skills, so not really the stuff I was looking for.

Thanks a lot for any piece of information !

[Ullis]

I´ll relaunch my Orcs from scratch for that league, so I´ve got a chance to correct any mistakes I´ve already made. The biggest difficulty seems to be skilling up the BOBs, it´s kind of unlikely that they score TD´s, or complete passes, so the only chance is a 1/11 for MVP and the odd casualty they might cause...

Black orcs have AG2 so they catch a hand off with 4+. With a reroll that's 75% chance of success. Mind you, don't give the ball to one early. Only hand off to him when you're already close to the end zone. This is obviously you can't do all the time but scoring with them isn't impossible. You must also make sure that you get that Black orc close enough to the end zone.

I'd probably stick to Mighty Blow and Guard for the blitzers and Black orcs (Block first for Black orcs). They're good skills.

2. Defense setup
I´ve read interesting articles about something called "ziggurat" only today and realised that I completely buggered my first setups... is the ziggurat and its variation the preferred method for defense setups ? Are there race (Orc specific considerations ? When my opponent scored I usually had holes in my defense and his fastest players sneaked through, escaping my defense using lots of go for its. Guess with a deeper defense line this will be better.

I only use the ziggurat myself when the opponent has Frenzy. Otherwise I usually stick to the column defence (very close to the ziggurat). That way the opponent can only go through the middle and then you can collapse you defence on him from both sides.

and because of bad dice I mostly run aout of rerolls early. ANY advice here is welcome !

People usually run out of rerolls because they make 1d blocks, GFI's and dodges before they have their cage set up for the turn. Also, it's very important to NOT reroll stuff and learn to conserve your rerolls. Especially with orcs you don't really have to be afraid of getting knocked down. Your guys have AV9 so it's no big deal. Only reroll stuff if it's absolutely critical early in the half.

A slow moving cage can be really frustrating on offence. Usually the important thing is to not cage up too deep in your own half. Even if the kick goes deep, it's usually enough to screen the ball carrier with two players, if at all. The rest can stay closer to the middle and hit stuff.

5. Digital formats
For training sessions, would you rather recommend FUMBBL or the Cyanide game (I got legendary edition but only gave it a very short try up to now). I tried to watch some replays on FUMBBL, but most of the ones I found are with high TV teams and tons of skills, so not really the stuff I was looking for.

I don't have Cyanide but I really enjoy Fumbbl.

[TheDoc]

[quote="Hegel"]

1. Roster, skills and team development -Congratulations you are playing Orcs a good choice as a starting team as they are uber powerful straight from the box.

I started with 4 BOBs, 4 Blitzers, 2 Line Orks, 1 Thrower and 3 RR. 2 Blitzers have skilled up, one with Frenzy, one with Guard. One Line Ork got Block. I´m planning to buy another Line Ork ant then an Apo. Is that OK so far? -Right don't worry to heavily about the lineorc get the apothecary as he will save bigger and better players e.g. blitzers and black orcs - linos are expendable don't get attached to them. Reading your league you will be fine. Beat up the necro (target wolves, ghouls and wights), elves, humans and starting chaos (especially as you have 4 block blitzers). The BOBs will always be hard and slow to skill they are designed that way. You get 2 dice on st3 so pick and choose your blocks (if you can get a TD with them great). Once you get them block and then Mighty blow you will find the points start flowing.



2. Defense setup
I´ve read interesting articles about something called "ziggurat" only today and realised that I completely buggered my first setups... is the ziggurat and its variation the preferred method for defense setups ? Are there race (Orc specific considerations ? When my opponent scored I usually had holes in my defense and his fastest players sneaked through, escaping my defense using lots of go for its. Guess with a deeper defense line this will be better. Against fast teams use a column 3,4,4 look it up it is a classic formation. I like the formation where you use a ziggurat but place your BOBs on the wide zones. The opponent will go through the centre and then you crush him in the middle with the BOBs and blitzers. Very effective

3. Offense setups
Are there similar considerations as for defense setups ? I usually try to throw as many blocks against the defense and build a cage as early as possible, centering my thrower to pick up the ball. That usually works fine, and when receiving I usually manage to get a cage going. Nevertheless, most of the time it gets stuck, so maybe my cage isn´t effective or too slow, or... ? Key to BB is patience so (1) Don't always do everything to soon, let the opponent move and react to him same on defence - don't over commit always give yourself a plan B (the pass or hand off) (2) Cages are good with orcs but you can cage in the middle of the field and be effective also you will need to screen players off from the opposition - it is more fluid than caging and can be as effective.

4. Scoring
Biggest problem I have really is actually scoring. Most of the times my cage gets stuck on the way, or the only chance I see is going for it just with the thrower or a blitzer. I tend not to use passes, as I don´t have a skilled catcher and because of bad dice I mostly run aout of rerolls early. ANY advice here is welcome !Reroll management/risk management is what the game is about. You do everything that isn't a risk 1st then the less risky things and finally the more risky things (if neccesary) -remember rolling the dice is a risk as you can't control the outcome - you will get bad results now and again and you will need to see which require rerolling and which can be let go and accept the bad result. As for the cage stalling - you need a plan b an option out if your cage stops. You can try a rolling maul as well where players from the back are recycled (like rugby) and become the front of the cage by blitzing or moving into space (remember you aren't elves - dodges fail 33% of the time.

5. Digital formats
For training sessions, would you rather recommend FUMBBL or the Cyanide game (I got legendary edition but only gave it a very short try up to now). I tried to watch some replays on FUMBBL, but most of the ones I found are with high TV teams and tons of skills, so not really the stuff I was looking for. Cyanide to learn the game (skills basic moves etc as you will get through games quickly (vs the PC) and learn your team) Fumbbl will help you master the game as the coaches are really good on there and show you where your tactics are wrong and you can then change them. It is a learning process so you get better as you practice.

Good luck!

[Heff]

no advice on Orcs I have hardly played them. But generally. Play a lot, cyanide is good for that. I put a team together and just played MM. You will come across dbags who disconnect when you get a KO on your first block of the game (I kid you not) but just play for the experience. After a few games go for 2 minute turns cos you get through games faster that way.

Then watch the replay. Watch what your opponent does and try to spot where you go wrong. When I started playing I was amazed at what people could do, after a while I started to "see" the board as opposed to just look at it. this only comes with experience.

As has been said elsewhere the key is to roll as few dice as possible while getting him to roll as often as you can.

PRIORETISE

Stand up players you don't want to move or who are not in tackle zones

Safe moves first

Then vital moves/blocks

Then less vital moves requiring easy dice

Then harder dice

Three dice blocks then two dice then one dice.

If a player is in a good place DO NOTHING WITH HIM. I have one dice blocked with the player who is the lynchpin of my defense and opened up my entire team before now.

The good players always prioretise the poor ones get excited and start doing that blitz to clear the player to score before they have stood up the six players who are lying down. Try and be a good player.

Lastly. Sometimes you have to just go for it, if so go balls to the wall. Normally you do not.
Be prepared to lose A LOT. I have been playing for about three years now and am finally becoming merely bad.

[Hegel]

After having bought an apothecary for my team I hopefully will be able to afford a reserve player after my next match today. Would you rather buy another line ork or go for a goblin instead ? Or a forth reroll ? I don´t really fancy the troll, he seems to be too dim witted to be of any help and he costs a lot...

[johnnih]

Both Troll and goblin have their uses, but it depends on style and they are a bit harder to utilize effectively, so I would say it is fine decision to leave them out. You may want to experiment with them later on, though.

Overall, another lineorc is probably the way to go. If you dream of additional rerolls though, you can buy a thrower instead and attempt to skill him up for a leader. That is cheap reroll although the discount is less for orcs than some other teams due to their somewhat pricy throwers (compared to linos) and averagely priced RRs (60k). So your leader reroll will be 40k TV, with the added cost of the thrower, compared to 60k, but you will save all your gold.

[burgun824]

'ummie made some good points so I will extrapolate on his

1. Roster, skills and team development -Congratulations you are playing Orcs a good choice as a starting team as they are uber powerful straight from the box.

I started with 4 BOBs, 4 Blitzers, 2 Line Orks, 1 Thrower and 3 RR. 2 Blitzers have skilled up, one with Frenzy, one with Guard. One Line Ork got Block. I´m planning to buy another Line Ork ant then an Apo. Is that OK so far? -Right don't worry to heavily about the lineorc get the apothecary as he will save bigger and better players e.g. blitzers and black orcs - linos are expendable don't get attached to them. Reading your league you will be fine. Beat up the necro (target wolves, ghouls and wights), elves, humans and starting chaos (especially as you have 4 block blitzers). The BOBs will always be hard and slow to skill they are designed that way. You get 2 dice on st3 so pick and choose your blocks (if you can get a TD with them great). Once you get them block and then Mighty blow you will find the points start flowing. You built a solid starting roster. It's the exact one I would build. However, I like to have a rough plan for team development. I would not have taken Frenzy on the blitzer (at least not first). I would have taken either guard or Mighty blow. I like to develop two traditional blitzers and two killers. The traditional blitzers get guard -> tackle -> strip ball/diving tackle. The killers get Mighty Blow -> Piling On -> Frenzy. Now you can still develop the frenzy blitzer into a killer, but the reason I take MB and PO first is it gets him there faster. More CAS = More SPP faster = killer earlier. BOBs should get -> block -> MB -> guard. Don't get cute with them unless you roll a double or +ST. And don't always be tempted to take stat increase. On BOB's for example I'd ignore any stat increase except strength. MA AG & AV increases on a BOB is pointless TV bloat. You'll also want a DP. I wait for a lino to roll a double and give him sneaky git, then I give him DP on his second roll and you've got a monster on your hands. Throwers get block -> leader -> kick-off return. I take Dodge on any positional Orc ESPECIALLY a thrower. You will eventually want a Troll with Guard and a gobbo with catch. I definitely agree with 'ummie that you should buy the Apo first and foremost. Orcs are solid but they can get hurt early if you lean on their thick skin to carry you through a match too many times.


2. Defense setup
I´ve read interesting articles about something called "ziggurat" only today and realised that I completely buggered my first setups... is the ziggurat and its variation the preferred method for defense setups ? Are there race (Orc specific considerations ? When my opponent scored I usually had holes in my defense and his fastest players sneaked through, escaping my defense using lots of go for its. Guess with a deeper defense line this will be better. Against fast teams use a column 3,4,4 look it up it is a classic formation. I like the formation where you use a ziggurat but place your BOBs on the wide zones. The opponent will go through the centre and then you crush him in the middle with the BOBs and blitzers. Very effective A lot of time has been spent studying and debating set ups. The most important thing to remember in a set-up is to not leave your opponent a hole to exploit. Let him try and make his own (i.e. – don’t get flanked). With Orcs (particularly after you’ve aquired a troll and guard on a few BOBs) you can hold the LOS on defense quite effectively with 5 up front off the kick and be fairly safe against most teams. I’d suggest experimenting with set-ups. Ask yourself what you feel comfortable with and what suits your style of play. On defense keep a safety back (I usually use a thrower) and attack any deep threats that come through.

3. Offense setups
Are there similar considerations as for defense setups ? I usually try to throw as many blocks against the defense and build a cage as early as possible, centering my thrower to pick up the ball. That usually works fine, and when receiving I usually manage to get a cage going. Nevertheless, most of the time it gets stuck, so maybe my cage isn´t effective or too slow, or... ? Key to BB is patience so (1) Don't always do everything to soon, let the opponent move and react to him same on defence - don't over commit always give yourself a plan B (the pass or hand off) (2) Cages are good with orcs but you can cage in the middle of the field and be effective also you will need to screen players off from the opposition - it is more fluid than caging and can be as effective. See above mostly. Although I would add that the main mistake newbies make with a cage (myself included) is impatience. If your cage gets stalled for a few turns then so what. Don’t be in a hurry to get anywhere with Orcs or your plans with crash and burn. And if you find yourself in a situation where you need to pass or hand-off…you’re likely screwed.

4. Scoring
Biggest problem I have really is actually scoring. Most of the times my cage gets stuck on the way, or the only chance I see is going for it just with the thrower or a blitzer. I tend not to use passes, as I don´t have a skilled catcher and because of bad dice I mostly run aout of rerolls early. ANY advice here is welcome !Reroll management/risk management is what the game is about. You do everything that isn't a risk 1st then the less risky things and finally the more risky things (if neccesary) -remember rolling the dice is a risk as you can't control the outcome - you will get bad results now and again and you will need to see which require rerolling and which can be let go and accept the bad result. As for the cage stalling - you need a plan b an option out if your cage stops. You can try a rolling maul as well where players from the back are recycled (like rugby) and become the front of the cage by blitzing or moving into space (remember you aren't elves - dodges fail 33% of the time. Research the 2-1 grind. It will work effectively against most teams that don’t employ it themselves and will be the bread and butter of your offense. Basically, you should control the ball for approximately 14 of your 16 turns. The other two you are beating your opponent into scoring quickly. Just be careful against experienced coaches. They’ve usually learned to sacrifice their low end players to keep you busy and will stall you out for at least a tie if you don’t press them.

5. Digital formats
For training sessions, would you rather recommend FUMBBL or the Cyanide game (I got legendary edition but only gave it a very short try up to now). I tried to watch some replays on FUMBBL, but most of the ones I found are with high TV teams and tons of skills, so not really the stuff I was looking for. Cyanide to learn the game (skills basic moves etc as you will get through games quickly (vs the PC) and learn your team) Fumbbl will help you master the game as the coaches are really good on there and show you where your tactics are wrong and you can then change them. It is a learning process so you get better as you practice. I’m on FUMBBL and can personally recommend it. The major con is that it is very cliquey and some of the folks can be a little snooty. But overall most coaches there are very helpful and fun to play against. I’ve played 99% of my Blood Bowl games there because I don’t own Cyanide’s game and I don’t have anyone to play table top with where I live. I’ve gotten a lot better over time from playing the folks on FUMBBL just out of necessity.

Good luck!

[burgun824]

After having bought an apothecary for my team I hopefully will be able to afford a reserve player after my next match today. Would you rather buy another line ork or go for a goblin instead ? Or a forth reroll ? I don´t really fancy the troll, he seems to be too dim witted to be of any help and he costs a lot...

Puchase order:

1 - Apothecary
2 - Reserve Lino
3 - TROLL!
4 - Gobbo
5 - Re-roll

You definitely want a troll. He doesn't have to do anything except stand there (with guard). But that Troll will make the difference at the LOS because he will absorb attention, strike fear, and anchor your line. Do not do anything with him until the end of your turn and do not even do that unless you've stood someone next to him. But DEFINITELY buy the Troll.

[spubbbba]

Lots of good advice above.

One thing to add on the digital front is that on FUMBBL you can spectate games live. Orcs are very popular so you should be able to find some low TV teams. CR gives a very rough indication of skill.

I’d also recommend speccing some tournament games where there is a large crowd as you can see the other coaches discussing tactics. Most people are friendly so if you ask questions during the game you may be able to get some good tactical advice based on the game.

oh and if you don't get lucky with cas and MVP's then scoring with Black Orcs is key. As stated before a hand off has a 75% success rate with a re-roll so if it is late game and the BO is near the end zone then consider it, especially if it won't change the result. Even if it will you will need to consider if short term results are worth risking for long term gains.