5+5 Norse Runner

[Haribo]

Hey guys.

So, have 2 runners on a fairly young Norse team.
1st runner doubled and took nerves.
2nd runner skilled up. 1st skill and rolled 5+5.

So, question is armour? Move? Doubles skill? Or regular skill?

Am tempted by a move 8 runner, but also 2 nerves runners to get catch soon would also be amazing.

What are people's thoughts?

[Smeborg]

Boring no doubt, but I would take Guard. It's hard to get plentiful Guard nowadays on Norse, you need every double you can get for Guard. Mobile Guard with Blodge is quite powerful.

On a 6,4 I would be inclined to take +1MA.

Hope that helps.

[MattDakka]

Guard. Blodge Side Step Guard: invaluable support for crowdsurfs.
Don't take NoS on Runners, you are not going to use it a lot, if you play Norse properly (i.e. running game, no passing unless it's strictly necessary and you are forced to do it).
Norse are not a passing team and Runners are not catchers.

[Smeborg]

Norse are not a passing team and Runners are not catchers.

Haribo - once upon a time, Norse, like Amazons, were a passing team (they had both Throwers and Catchers). But since they lost Catch, I play them more as a running team with a passing option. But the option is to pass to any of the AG3 players, it does not need to be to a Runner. Runners have a lot of skills to choose from, and I suggest they are just too good and versatile to waste skills like Catch on. I prefer simply to keep a Team Re-roll in hand for catching, when needed.

But that does not mean that treating the Runners as true Catchers will not work, and you might want to stick to your guns. The main drawback is the number of skills required (ideally you need Catch plus Diving Catch plus Dodge plus Sidestep, not to mention NoS; Fend helps too).

All the best.

[spubbbba]

I would strongly advise against taking NoS on any AG3 player and question its use on AG4, particularly as a doubles choice.

Passing with AG3 is a huge risk and should only be attempted if you are desperate or it is safe to farm some spp’s. Good players rarely pass unless they are forced to, even with elves (previously mentioned farming attempts aside).

The running strategy has always been the most suitable for Norse as it has with humans, you can build a passing option but much of the skills used for this will be TV bloat for the majority of the game. And in crp more than any other rules version wasted skills are a real detriment to you.

Most Norse teams will go many games without passing, in fact throwers are frequently ignored altogether aside from leader caddies. Even if you are pass happy you will likely only do 1 or 2 a game and then need to have your receiver in tackle zone(s), and those tackle zone(s) to have made a difference to the catch roll to be worth it. Plus if you have players in tackle zones then there is an increased chance of an interception being possible as well as requiring you to dodge away.

At low TV I’d recommend the MA as some extra speed is great on the team. Since the Blitzers are lumbered with Frenzy then Runners make better ball hunters or safeties and the extra MA helps. AG3 is still reasonably reliable so you can use normal team re-rolls to perform most of the rare passing actions needed. If you hoard them carefully then they will probably be as effective as those skills but can be used for other things too.

[Smeborg]

I would strongly advise against taking NoS on any AG3 player and question its use on AG4, particularly as a doubles choice.

Passing with AG3 is a huge risk and should only be attempted if you are desperate or it is safe to farm some spp’s.

spubbbba - with the Human team, I have practised a valid strategy of Diving Catch on the Catchers (NoS on doubles). Combined with Accurate on the Throwers (who can also take NoS as a late skill), this gives 2+ passing and 2+ catching in TZs, both with re-rolls. Sort of poor man's elves. So while I agree that NoS is a poor choice for Norse Runners (I would not give it to them), I suggest your statements are a little extreme. NoS works for Humies, and possibly also for 'Zons (though I have not tested it for them).

In summary, I think NoS can be contemplated on AG3 players who have AG skill access and start with Catch and Dodge, provided you also give them D-Catch.

All the best.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Reinforcing failure is not a valid strategy.
Take NoS and diving catch if you think it's cool and you and your mates will enjoy it.
If you want to win don't waste skill ups on terrible choices.

[narg]

I've got a Norse thrower with block, dodge, sure hands, accurate and nerves of steel and he's doing a good job. Nerves of Steel was the 4th skill for him and as a 4th skill I don't think there was anything better to give him. He's my main ball carrier and when my opponent manages to destroy my cage and go to contact with the thrower, accurate and nerves of steel help a lot to move the ball away.

That being said, there are so many better skills to give to a Norse runner that I really wouldn't bother with nerves of steel. Better skills include: dodge, diving tackle, side-step, and on doubles guard or mighty blow. If you want to go for a passing game (which Norse aren't very good at) then catch is better as well. As a late skill you could also consider Fend, it's good to keep them alive and combined with side-step it's good to get them out of tackle zones, and with AG3 that's always good.

Many Norse coaches turn a Norse runner into a ball carrier because they are faster and have better ball protection as they have access to dodge, if you do that then you can give one of them sure hands.

[spubbbba]

Reinforcing failure is not a valid strategy.
Take NoS and diving catch if you think it's cool and you and your mates will enjoy it.
If you want to win don't waste skill ups on terrible choices.

I have to agree with this 100%. When it comes to discussing general tactics and strategy I always emphasise the most effective. Though there are local factors that can greatly influence this such as the make up of your league, house rules and level of competitiveness.

So if someone wants to argue that passing humans can win games I will happily agree. I’d also say that the passing game is far cooler and more fun than the 2-1 grind but when it comes to winning games with humans then it is not the best strategy. Norse are even less suited to the passing game with considerably lower MA, but almost universal block and 5 frenzy players (3 with ST4+) make up for that.

You really need to ask yourself how much use you will get out of skill when you pick it, as that TV could be spent on a better skill, more players or gaining/avoiding giving away inducements. Something like Diving Catch comes into play pretty rarely compared to a skill like block which you are likely to use multiple times in a game. Nerves of Steel only works when you pass or catch the ball in a tackle zone and would have failed with those negative modifiers. So how many uses per game is this skill actually going to get? Less than 1 in every 2 I would predict.

One of the human teams few strengths is their speed and versatility, however this means they don’t excel in anything. It is always useful to have a passing option, and the threat of it is a great way to split your opponents defence but accurate on the thrower, the natural re-rolls from pass and catch as well as MA6-8 and AG3 on the human members of the team is enough to do that. You can spend more TV making this better but that TV would be better spent on skills that benefit you on defence or when you are not passing or catching which is most of the time.

Block, dodge (if they don’t have it already such as the norse runner or pro and high elves) and Sidestep are the best skills for catcher types. After that the human catcher runs out of great choices, tackle and diving tackle are ok for chasing down gutters and their ilk, both are good for Norse runners as they have ST3.
Human throwers need block 1st and then I usually give 1 accurate and develop the other into a safety/ball hunter. Humans, Norse and Amazons want their blitzers to get the strength skills like guard, MB and PO and linemen tend not to live long and be on the LOS so skills like kick, tackle and strip ball (sure hands too for zons and norse) can be neglected so will make Throwers useful on defence.

[Smeborg]

spubbbba and jimmy - I suggest you may be mis-reading my posts on this thread.

I would almost certainly not take D-Catch or NoS as skills on any team in a TV-matched perpetual on-line environment. But in a mixed race tabletop league there are circumstances where these skills may be a reasonable and valid choice. But never (I suggest) on Norse (which is the point I was trying to make in response to the OP).

For my own part, I am not sure it is worthwhile taking Catchers on the Human team at all, if you are seeking optimum TV efficiency (perhaps one for OTS). Thus talking of which skills they should take may be otiose.

All the best.

[Haribo]

Hey guys.
Thanks for the replies.

Interesting to hear that people dont play the norse as a short pass team.
Have found that because of the low mvt a short pass to a runner in 2-3 tzs means I can get up the pitch easier, nerves becoming golden here as its no longer a 5 or 6, but back to a 3.

Interesting to hear no one mention the move or armour.
Was more thinking these than skills but not sure what would be better.

[spubbbba]

I was speaking from a perspective of an online scheduled league using humans.

Humans got hit really hard by the changes from lrb4 to 5 as at mid to high TV they need at least 13 players, 3 or 4 re-rolls and skilled Blitzers, throwers and catchers. In lrb4 they had some of the best stars so if you had the cash you could bring the count to a vital game, zara vs undead or zug for a cheap and more reliable ogre.

Catchers always gave me difficulties as they are overpriced and not very good at their job (catching and dodging). They tend to be the weak link on the team and you really notice the ST2 when you have 2 of them on the pitch. However when the running game goes badly they are great to have for their speed as humans are one of the fastest teams. But having 2 skilled catchers was a lot of TV and often you’d have been better off with 3 block or wrestle linemen. I ended up settling for 1 with block and sidestep.

That was why I aimed for maximum versatility for my throwers, one with block, accurate, guard and tackle is useful all game against a wide variety of teams. Whilst one with accurate, safe throw, nerves of steel and strong arm is only good for passing.

Oh and I did like +MA on the runner, guard is good too if the team lacks it. You probably missed it in the wall of text.

[narg]

Interesting to hear that people dont play the norse as a short pass team.

No they're not a short pass team, they're a running team: the player who picks up the ball is the player who should score, unless things go wrong. And when things go wrong you won't necessarily be able to choose to whom you'll pass the ball - usually it'll just be the player who happens to be still standing and out of tackle zones, which is why having a developed catcher isn't necessary.

The issue with nerves of steel is that even if you pass the ball to a runner in multiple tackle zones, he still has to get out of there, which will be tough with AG3 and without dodge, as is your case for the moment. Therefore handing-off or passing the ball to a random lineman who is out of tackle zones is better. On top of that if you pass the ball to a player in multiple tackle zones, chances are that it will trigger an interception attempt, which you should always try to avoid.

Sometimes you may be forced to do a short passing game (when you have a 2-turn drive for example) but in that case skills such as dodge and side-step or better on runners as it allows them to resist better and to not go into tackle zones in the first place. And if you really want to give a catcher skill then I prefer catch to nerves of steel as it can be used on hand-offs as well, and ideally even in a 2-turn drive you should aim for a hand-off as it has a higher chance of success.

[narg]

By the way - to make a long story short, just check Carnis' Norse playbook, it's very good:

http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/playbooks/On_Rampage.pdf

[GreedySmurf]

Hey guys.
Thanks for the replies.

Interesting to hear that people dont play the norse as a short pass team.
Have found that because of the low mvt a short pass to a runner in 2-3 tzs means I can get up the pitch easier, nerves becoming golden here as its no longer a 5 or 6, but back to a 3.

Interesting to hear no one mention the move or armour.
Was more thinking these than skills but not sure what would be better.

I disagree very strongly with a lot of others in this thread. Norse can and do play very well as a short passing team. Their 'natural' style is a running game, but you'll get the best out of them playing a blended running/short passing style of game.

On a 5+5 on a Runner - take the +MA every time. That 8 MV is invaluable, even better than NOS. And for gods sake don't go Guard, that's just tempting you to put them in the fight which will get them smashed, and suddenly there goes your best attacking weapon.

I will note one disclaimer that I play exclusively TT. So while I keep an eye on TV, it isn't the holiest of holies for me.