Pass Block + HMP

[garion]

It is my belief that Pass Block cannot be used on a HMP for the reasons below, am I correct?

HMP quotes -
1, "HMP may not be intercepted"
2, "The range ruler is not used"

Pass Block quotes -
1, "the opposing coach may not change his mind about passing after pass block is declared"
2, "the move is made out of sequence after the range has been measured"
3, "before any interceptions are made"

This all means the pass sequence is - declare pass>> move>> Measure>> Pass Block>> interception>> pass roll>> possible scatter>> Catch.

Pass Block quote 2, means that the Pass Block is declared after the range has been measured, but since HMP does not use a range ruler (HMP quote 2) then you cannot declare Pass Block, right?

Pass Block quote 3 means Pass Block is declared prior to interceptions, right? Because you cannot do it any sooner, because you dont know where the pass is going to take place from if you check the sequence. Especially if you take in to consideration Pass Block quote 1. Because if the ball starts on the ground and you declare a pass, Pass Block cannot be declared, because you could then just not pick the ball up?

Also HMP quote 1 says HMP cannot be intercepted.

So I personally think that clears that up right?

[dode74]

I'm not sure now, since our discussion on FUMBBL. I think that if the pass blocker can move to either the square targeted by HMP or within the TZs of the thrower/catcher then he can move, since these are legal squares.

A legal destination
puts the player in a position to attempt an interception [not possible with HMP], an empty square
that is the target of the pass, or with his tackle zone on the thrower or
catcher.

Moving within the TZ of the thrower would make no difference to the HMP roll of 2+, but any player attempting a catch within the TZs would not only not receive the +1 from an accurate pass, but would also receive -1 from being in the PB player's TZs.

My only real query is whether there is a catcher at all if the HMP is targeted at an empty square - for example, if the target square is between two Diving Catch players must the PB player make it to the empty square or can he simply mark a DC player? I suspect the former.

[garion]

yup that is the second part of HMP - but there is no target catcher, so they cannot move to mark him. Also you do not know where the ball is going to land, as it scatters like a Kick before it lands.

It could be argued that you could move to the square next to the thrower though, but it is pointless anyway as the TZ makes no difference.

I also do not think Pass Block can be declared at all because the pass is not measured, and Pass Block quote 2 says that Pass Block is declared after range is measured, but this does not take place as described in HMP quote 2.

But anyway, lets see what Galak and DS say, I'm sure they know what their intentions were. As I said before - I cannot see how Pass Block can fit in to the Pass Sequence if HMP is used. It just doesn't make sense allowing it imo.

[johnnih]

yup that is the second part of HMP - but there is no target catcher, so they cannot move to mark him. Also you do not know where the ball is going to land, as it scatters like a Kick before it lands.

There is, however, a target square and pass block allow you to move to the "target empty square" as well .

Reading the rules, it would seem that it isn't good enough to move to a square adjacent to the target square though. This has the somewhat odd implication that a pass blocker 4 squares from the target square, would be able to move if that square had a reciever while he wouldn't if it had not. A bit weird, logically speaking, but not a real problem.

I also do not think Pass Block can be declared at all because the pass is not measured, and Pass Block quote 2 says that Pass Block is declared after range is measured, but this does not take place as described in HMP quote 2.

I believe the range ruler is only mentioned to set the sequence straight, not because it is pivotal to the application of pass block. When no ruler is at play, I would say the pass block action simply follows the declaration of the HMP and its target square.

But anyway, lets see what Galak and DS say, I'm sure they know what their intentions were. As I said before - I cannot see how Pass Block can fit in to the Pass Sequence if HMP is used. It just doesn't make sense allowing it imo.

Yes, let's wait and see. It just doesn't make sense not alloqing it, imo. ; )

[garion]

yup that is the second part of HMP - but there is no target catcher, so they cannot move to mark him. Also you do not know where the ball is going to land, as it scatters like a Kick before it lands.

There is, however, a target square and pass block allow you to move to the "target empty square" as well.

Reading the rules, it would seem that it isn't good enough to move to a square adjacent to the target square though. This has the somewhat odd implication that a pass blocker 4 squares from the target square, would be able to move if that square had a reciever while he wouldn't if it had not. A bit weird, logically speaking, but not a real problem. Exactly, there is no target square he can move too, because someone is in it, and it is not a target player, you also do not know where the ball will land and you cannot use Pass block or intercept after the ball is passed.

I also do not think Pass Block can be declared at all because the pass is not measured, and Pass Block quote 2 says that Pass Block is declared after range is measured, but this does not take place as described in HMP quote 2.

I believe the range ruler is only mentioned to set the sequence straight, not because it is pivotal to the application of pass block. When no ruler is at play, I would say the pass block action simply follows the declaration of the HMP and its target square.

I strongly disagree here, the quote I extracted specifically says, Pass Block is declared after measuring, and HMP specifically says there is no measuring, this indicates that Pass Block cannot be used.

But please, lets just leave it, and wait and see what DS and galak say.

[dode74]

yup that is the second part of HMP - but there is no target catcher, so they cannot move to mark him.

As already noted, you don't need a target catcher, just a target square. A player within the target square would be the target catcher, ofc.

It could be argued that you could move to the square next to the thrower though, but it is pointless anyway as the TZ makes no difference.

I don't think any sort of positioning is pointless, tbh.

I also do not think Pass Block can be declared at all because the pass is not measured, and Pass Block quote 2 says that Pass Block is declared after range is measured

No it doesn't, it just says that the move takes place at that point in time, not the declaration. Since there is no measure you simply skip that part in the process and move. To my mind, PB is declared just after the pass is declared, and the PB player may choose to not move (if (s)he is legally able to) since the skill says the player "is allowed to move", not "must move".

[Ullis]

I have to say that I can't really see, after looking at the rules for actions, passing, intercepting, catching, Pass Block and Hail Mary Pass, why Pass Block couldn't be used. HMP just states that range ruler is not used, but there is a "target square", a "thrower" and either an "empty square" or a "catcher", all of which are legal destinations for the Pass Block movement.

HMP skips the range ruler from the passing sequence but using the range ruler clearly is not a requirement for using Pass Block.

Although it would be a really slight deviation from the rules if Pass Block isn't allowed for HMP's.

EDIT: Garion wanted to wait for DS and Galak while I was posting. Fair enough.

[garion]

Dode -

Did you even read the original post. Read the sequence again, you cannot possibly declare Pass Block when pass is declared. Because Pass has to be declared before picking up the ball if the ball is on the ground.

Because the rule says once Pass Block is declared you must pass the ball, but if you dont have the ball then you could choose not to pick the ball up, or pick it up and move in a different direction passing to someone else. This would completely ruin the whole point of the skill, and the only part of it that is useful... which is people forget about it.

It also says Pass Block is used before the interception.

It just does not make sense if you declare it as soon as the Pass is declared.

The only way the sequence works is if it is declared when the pass is measured. And since it is not measure for HMP it cannot be declared.

[dsavillian]

The only way the sequence works is if it is declared when the pass is measured.

Ignoring getting hung up on the range ruler and measuring distance, why wouldn't the sequence

Select target square for HMP > Allow PB Player to move > Resolve HMP

work?

[johnnih]

Did you even read the original post. Read the sequence again, you cannot possibly declare Pass Block when pass is declared. Because Pass has to be declared before picking up the ball if the ball is on the ground.

Of course he meant the point when the coach declares that the player is passing the ball. That is different from the point in time where the pass action is declared before the movement of the passing player. Nothing strange in this. In a perfectly normal pass there are these two instances as well, the declaration prior to the player starting his action, the actions following (movement, picking up ball, dodging, etc) and the announcement that the ball is now being thrown.

The event that pass block refers to, is clearly the second of these two.

Because the rule says once Pass Block is declared you must pass the ball, but if you dont have the ball then you could choose not pick the ball up, or pick it up and move in a different direction passing to someone else.

Again, it is clearly the second instance that is intended, not the declaration prior to the player's activation.[/quote]

The only way the sequence works is if it is declared when the pass is measured. And since it is not measure for HMP it cannot be declared.

I see now why you pay so much attention to the range ruler. If you don't recognize this as an instance in time at which the pass is declared, the event is only noted by the usage of the ruler. So, in my words the disagreement stems from you confusing the Pass Action Declaration and the announcement that the player is passing the ball (as the last part of his action phase).

[garion]

If you don't recognize this as an instance in time at which the pass is declared, the event is only noted by the usage of the ruler. So, in my words the disagreement stems from you confusing the Pass Action Declaration and the announcement that the player is passing the ball

There are not two declarations when passing. That is not in the rules, you are making up rules here I'm afraid, you only declare passing once.

also this second instance you keep refering to is when the range is measured, which is exactly my point and actually backs it up.

[dode74]

johnnih has it. I'll wait for Galak/Ian to answer this, although I doubt it'll be much different to this answer: viewtopic.php?p=243597#p243597
(old, I know, but I don't think much is different).

And garion, there's no need to get aggressive. I did read your posts, we just disagree on the difference between declaring a Pass Action and "announcing that one of his players is going to pass the ball" (which is the quote from the Pass Block rule). It's like the difference between a block and a Block Action.

[johnnih]

If you don't recognize this as an instance in time at which the pass is declared, the event is only noted by the usage of the ruler. So, in my words the disagreement stems from you confusing the Pass Action Declaration and the announcement that the player is passing the ball

There are not two declarations when passing. That is not in the rules, you are making up rules here I'm afraid, you only declare passing once.

Surely, we can agree that this second instance is an easily defined occurance that is perfectly discernable from the other? When playing TT you do point to your player and say he is going to make a Pass Action (1) then move, pick up, dodge, etc, and then say he now passes from here to here (2).

also this second instance you keep refering to is when the range is measured, which is exactly my point and actually backs it up.

Only if you want it to.. I'd argue that the range ruler measuring just occur at the same point in time.

Anyway, I have stated my opinion, you yours. I'm sure we understand each other now and just disagree. So I'll leave it here to see which interpretation galak/DS back up.

[garion]

I'm not getting aggressive.

You sir are truly a bad bad troll.

If you as johnnih says are saying after the measure there is a secret second pass decleration, then please point to it in the rules. The rules do say specifically that Pass Block takes place "after" the range is measured, and HMP says it does not get meausred, so you cannot declare a Pass Block, when range is not determined. Those are the words written and you cannot argue with them because declaring Pass Block only happens after the measure.

Hail Mary Pass says you cannot intercept it, so why would they allow a skill that is for intercepting to be used?

That is from 2004 and the rules have been re-worded since then.

Only if you want it to.. I'd argue that the range ruler measuring just occur at the same point in time.

Then I am afriad you are wrong, the rules specfically say "after". this means "after" this happens you can do that.

What you are referring to is when ' the pass is resolved' this is not what the skill description says.

[dode74]

If you as johnnih says are saying after the measure there is a secret second pass decleration, then please point to it in the rules.

At what point during the Pass Action do you say you are passing? The passer can, after all, move first, so at some point you have to say "this guy is stopping now and passing the ball".
In fact, the FAQ has a full description of the pass sequence which includes declaring the target of the pass (second point) - to me, this is declaring the pass itself rather than declaring the Pass Action.

The rules do say specifically that Pass Block takes place "after" the range is measured

No they don't. They specifically say that the move takes place out of sequence, and then says where in the sequence the move takes place, i.e. after the range has been measured but before any interception attempts take place. Presumably you would now also argue that since no interception attempts can take place that this further backs up your argument, but I would argue that instead of this it merely puts the pass block move into the correct location of the sequence of events which make up a pass (see CRP FAQ).

This is the full sequence from the FAQ:
1. Declare a Pass Action, move if desired, and then start the throw.
2. Declare target of the pass and determine range modifier.
3. Pass Blockers move if any are eligible to do so.
4. Check for interceptors and roll for possible interception.
5. Roll D6 to throw and subtract number of tackle zones, Disturbing Presence and range modifiers on Thrower from roll.
6. If pass was fumbled, stop here. Otherwise continue.
7. If the throw is Accurate, go to step #8, otherwise scatter 3 times (to represent where the ball will land not the ball bouncing.)
8. If the ball lands in a square with a player, determine modifiers on Catch and roll for Catch, otherwise bounce the ball once from the empty square the ball landed in.

I don't see any one of those parts being missing as preventing any other parts from happening, but you are saying that because there is no 2 there can be no 3.

Hail Mary Pass says you cannot intercept it, so why would they allow a skill that is for intercepting to be used?

You know full well that he skill is not just for intercepting. It is also for pressuring.

HMP, by the way, does NOT say that the range is not measured. It says "The player may throw the ball to any square on the playing pitch, no matter what the range: the range ruler is not used." Being able to hit any square precludes the need to measure the range as there is no modifier, and the modifier is the only reason to measure the range in the first place. Not using the range ruler and not measuring range are not the same thing: would you use the range ruler to determine the modifier for a pass to an adjacent player (assuming that the hand-off has already taken place), or would you simply call it a quick pass? You'd still be measuring the range, but not using the ruler because the modifier is already known. I'd say it's the same for HMP - you know the ball is going 20 squares, but the modifier is known so you don't bother measuring.