The Art of Fouling

[narg]

Is there an expert here who could give me some advice or direct me to a good article?

Here's my problem: I mostly play with friends and fouling is not exactly forbidden but let's say if you want to keep getting games you'd better not overdo it. Now recently I started playing more competitive games and I realized I wasn't very good at fouling. You've got a fairly high chance of being sent off; it's not every turn that you have a war dancer on the floor and five idle players around outside of tackle zones with nothing better to do than ganging up; and when I do have a Dirty Player in my team he's always in the wrong spot. For example zombies are supposed to be cost-effective dirty players but with MV4 and AG2 they usually can't make it when there's finally a high-value target on the floor, so I find block to be generally more effective on a zombie than dirty player.

So usually the only kind of effective fouling I do is of the "finish him" variety, when I'm already winning, there are only three opponents left on the pitch and I really have nothing better to do than fouling, but at that stage it's kind of useless as the game is already won anyway.

I'd like some generic advice, or if it has to be team-specific, for necros.

[swilhelm73]

Actually, fouling is hard as necros preciously because you do not want to clump against most teams. Also, if you are playing well there will be a lot of lateral movement. So don't expect to foul a lot. This is one difference between Undead and Necro.

But if are on say T8 with no hope of scoring focus on setting up a foul or a surf.

One thing that could help though is getting wrestle on your Zs instead of block. More targets on the ground then.

[Porkus_Maximus]

Basically the way I understand it, you need to effectively reduce the target's armour to 6 (dirty player, assists) for the odds of breaking armour to out-weigh the odds of getting sent off. Whenever you foul, assuming effective av6 you need to be think to yourself "If I foul this guy and get sent off, will a stun accomplish anything?".

I really don't have much advice on the subject on fouling because in my personal experience fouling is an extremely niche action that I rarely take. In my opinion fouling in lrb4 felt like a genuinely dangerous part of a team's arsenal (admittedly, too dangerous for some teams), whereas fouling since lrb5 kind of feels like something I'll only do when I'm in an extremely safe position or I'm in an extremely desperate position.

[Nikolai II]

On offense, if your opponent put anything valuable on the LOS you might as well gangfoul it.

And if you are caging forwards you get plenty of options to gangfoul - but necro don't cage.

[burgun824]

Fouling is an art and is to be done strategically. You should have one player on your team that excels at it and you should tell any friends that whine about fouling that they need to go to the bathroom and wipe the sand out of their mommy parts.

I like to give my first lino that rolls a double sneaky git. He becomes my fouler. His next skill is of course DP.

Never target anyone that's not worth it. Don't waste your time fouling scrubs. You should always foul someone that you know your opponent is going to hate see carried of the pitch. This will not only smoke one of his favorites, but it will likely fluster him in some way and cause him to make a mistake later.

Make sure you say something awful before you cave his face in with your boot. I like to give a good, "Get off my pitch, Chump!" right as I roll the dice. <----Remember though that this is for fun and not to take this part too seriously or your friends might have good reason to not ask you to play any more.

Get as many assists as you can but don't kill your position. I gang foul regularly if I'm playing a bash team that wins by a 2-1 grind. I can isolate, surround, and destroy somebody fairly easily in two turns if I'm not concentrating or caring if he scores. Hell...I want him to so I can have the ball back. And if he stalls then it lets me get on to breaking the spine of the next guy. This tactic doesn't work as well with teams that rely more on defense so use your judgment.

[dode74]

The odds:

The x-axis is the effective AV of the target (i.e. including assists), bar charts are the odds of being sent off with (orange portion) and without (extra blue portion on top) Sneaky Git while the coloured background is the odds of getting that injury result (or better, if you want to be picky about it). So a normal foul against an effective AV 6 target has a slightly greater chance of KO or better than of being sent off, while a SG/DP foul against an effective AV 5 target actually has a slightly greater chance of causing a cas than being sent off - the only time this happens. DP/SG does actually almost even out the odds of causing a cas vs being sent off most of the time. One thing to note with this chart is that it does not take into account the chances of you not wanting to use DP on a SG foul (e.g. double 4 on an AV8 player).

[Shteve0]

I love the contrast in those two responses!

Dode, do you have the numbers for that chart? It's fascinating. Mostly because whenever I try fouling (PC game) I seem to get sent off with out breaking armour.

Oh, and I suppose I should throw in the obligatory "for once, I agree with Burgun"...

[Porkus_Maximus]

It's been a long time since I've looked at those charts, I forgot how effective DP+SG can actually be. It's just a shame it's such an expensive skill combination... whatever team you play your linesmen are going to end up costing 100-120tv to use that combo, not exactly what I'd consider "disposable" unless playing on an extremely developed team.

[burgun824]

...whatever team you play your linesmen are going to end up costing 100-120tv to use that combo, not exactly what I'd consider "disposable" unless playing on an extremely developed team.

Definitely a consideration. IMO though...I'll spend it every time on a bash team that wins on the 2-1 grind. The DP with SG plays too key a roll in scarring your oponent into scoring instead of stalling.

/stomp

[narg]

Wow, just back on the computer and lots of answers here, thanks!

This forum should be renamed "Ask Dode", he answered all my latest posts with precise links, data, rule points or graphs...

Ok so to summarize:
- Fouling should only be done with caging teams - you just have to intentionally move your cage on an opposing player, this way you can gang up on a player AND have your players actually do something useful to win the game as they're protecting the ball carrier at the same time.
- If you foul to get a KO or a casualty, you have to reduce armor to AV5, or AV7 if you have Dirty Player or Sneaky Git; if you have both dirty player AND sneaky git then you can foul anyone short of treemen.
- If you foul to get a casualty and not just a KO (because you're particularly mean or because the opponent has one or two Babes), then to get the maximum trade-off you need both dirty player and sneaky git and you need to get the AV down to precisely 5, no more and no less.

So the next question is, on the long-term, is it better to have a zombie / orc / beastman / whatever with dirty player and sneaky git or is it better to have one with block and guard? Surely with block and guard you can get casualties just from the additional blocks, I wonder how the lost opportunity from these additional blocks compares to the extra damage you cause with dirty player and sneaky git. On top of that once you have block it's easier to skill-up and get guard, whereas dirty player or sneaky git don't help you at all to skill up.

[Smeborg]

I would like to add some other considerations.

The most common foul for me with my Nurgle and Khemri teams (could apply to other slow and clumsy teams) is a type of tactical foul which might be called a "caging foul". There is a prone body where I need to cage. So I surround it and foul it (normally at +3). The next most common foul is against targets of opportunity (the prone Wardancer etc.). I rarely foul simply to reduce numbers, although this is not uncommon around turn 8 if I have no chance of scoring (and I have reserves, my opponent has none).

On some teams I do not bother to take Dirty Player as I consider it a waste of TV. As has already been said, on a slow player (say MA5 or less) DP can be wasted when the player is out of position. Thus, for example, on a Rotter, I would consider Block, Fend and Foul Appearance to all be better value than DP.

Although Sneaky Git appeals to me strongly in theory, I dislike the skill in practice, as it only works (if at all) when the foul fails to break armour. A waste for me, as a good foul has good odds of success. Sneaky Git seems to be a sort of joke skill to allow systematic fouling at poor odds (fun, but unlikely to influence the game).

In a league, when you have the opportunity for gratuitous fouling, you have to consider whether damaging the opponent will help or hinder your team in the longer term. It may be better to leave your opponent unharmed, if you think it will help him against your rivals.

As time goes by, I find myself fouling more and more in tournaments (generally with success). I think this is because there are relatively few expensive skilled players on the pitch in tourneys, so taking one of them out has a disproportionate influence on the game.

Often when fouling, I am happy to just get a Stun. A KO is a bonus.

Hope that helps.

[burgun824]

On a Zombie I would take guard on my first doubles roll because it's so much more useful for Necro and Undead. I'd take SG on the second Zombie that gets a doubles on an Undead team, but on a Necro team I would hem and haw.

[dode74]

Dode, do you have the numbers for that chart? It's fascinating. Mostly because whenever I try fouling (PC game) I seem to get sent off with out breaking armour.

I have them in a decent format on my laptop, which is at work. I'll post tomorrow. I might update for the "unwanted double" DP/SG foul as well.

[burgun824]

His name is dode74.

This is what he looks like:

[dode74]

With numbers:

I did make an error when I said that the SGDP foul against an AV5 target has a higher chance of causing a cas than being sent off - it's actually ever so slightly lower, which is something I think Data would have got right the first time
Also, I've not adjusted the odds for choosing not to DP on a double for the AV roll since that's a tactical choice really, and I just wanted to show the potential. The odds are small of that choice being available, though (1/36, in fact!).