DE team without ball movement skills?

[Smeborg]

I have just started a new DE team in a very friendly tabletop league.

Since I have become increasingly frustrated with the Runner(s) over the last year or two, I decided to dispense with them altogether, and started with the common alternative roster:

1 Witch
3 Blitzers
7 Linos
2 RR

This has worked very well in the first couple of games The likely final roster is:

2 Witches
4 Blitzers
7 Linos
3 RR
Apoth
TV = 131

I like having a DE team on which every player can "look after himself" (I find the Runners and Assassins rather weedy and thus something of a liability). This leads me to contemplate a roster without ball movement skiils at all (by which I mean skills specifically designed to move the ball, e.g. Sure Hands, K-Ret, S-Ball, Catch, passing skills). This admittedly seems a bit extreme, but I can see benefits. I would add that Strip Ball is not very popular in our league.

Has anyone tried this or have any thoughts on the matter?

[Shteve0]

I regularly do this with amazons. My typical starting line up is 4 blitzers and 8 linewomen with 4 rerolls and 40k saved for an apoth. With AG4 across the board I can see the argument for it even more so. For sure hands to be effective over a team reroll (cost differential aside) you have to be picking the ball up on average six times a game with the same player, and its the same with pass or catch. I don't do that, no doubt partly because I'm not good enough, but also because team rerolls don't go off with injured or KOd players and give me the flexibility to pull off the play with any player in the arsenal (tends to reduce spp hoarding, too). On an AG4 team, I'd argue that pass/catch etc are even less valuable when the opportunity cost involves passing up block/dodge.

[dines]

I think what you describe is more or less the standard fumbbl build Some even forgo one or both witches to max av8. And on such a team ball skills would be a waste IMO

[Ullis]

For sure hands to be effective over a team reroll (cost differential aside) you have to be picking the ball up on average six times a game with the same player, and its the same with pass or catch.

You're selling Sure Hands short here. First of all, you simply can't forget about the cost differential. Additionally, Sure Hands, especially on AG4 types, is great because you can use it to pick up loose balls lying in TZ's. If a ball ends up in opposing TZ's, chances are you need to save the reroll for othe stuff. And on those really hard pick ups, say 5+ or even 6+, you don't want to waste a team reroll but being able to reroll changes the odds a lot.

But I agree with Smeborg's plan with the difference that I would look to give someone Sure Hands at some point, but only after blodging the player up.

[Hitonagashi]

Mmm, I disagree, but only because it's Dark Elves.

I love Sure Hands on AG4 normally, it's invaluable for:
a) saving rerolls in the backfield pickups
b) picking the ball up in TZ
c) helping against strip ball in elfball
d) One turning (reliability is everything in 1 turns, cos there's so much to go wrong).

The issue with Dark Elves for me is that they play the hardest running game of all the elves, and the most contact oriented defense. Blitzers go blodge/ss/dt, with some tackle thrown in, and linemen go...blodge/ss/rip .

I agree with not taking a runner, but the implication there is your running game uses blitzers and caging. A good strategy, but one that isn't greatly aided by sure hands.

Going over my points for DE:
1) Still applies
2) With DE, I've found it's often more efficient to just leave 3 dt/ssers around the ball and position to grab it the next turn. Other elves have the speed to steal it and run, Dark Elves are all about their position.
3) Still applies..but as mentioned in 2, DE are usually fine relying on the fact that wherever the ball bounces, it'll be in DT TZ, making it a sod to get to.
4) DE tend to be too slow to 1 turn (it is possible, just hard).

I usually take it as a (very) late pick. My view is that the blitzers are too valuable as either blodging/dt/ssers, or mobile tacklers. The witches are made for wrestle fun, and wrestle on a ball carrier is baad. The linos are too slow to be effective runners (for elves). If you want Sure Hands, I'd take a runner for it, and build him for running the ball.

Otherwise, I'm a fan of DE without ball movement. I've ran a couple of teams like that to 50 games, and loved both of them.

[narg]

Otherwise, I'm a fan of DE without ball movement. I've ran a couple of teams like that to 50 games, and loved both of them.

Just one question here - how do you deal with strip-ballers in general and war dancers in particular? If you have no dedicated thrower and no dedicated ball carrier I'm not sure how you deal with that - you're not very good at defending the ball in a cage and you're not very good at moving the ball from one side of the pitch to the other with pass + hand-off.

[Overhamsteren]

Well as said the ball should bounce near a lot of diving tackle but I don't know AG5, leap or a decent thrower chucking it instead of dodging away from the diving tackle could quickly turn into a defensive score for the opponent but that might be higher TV stuff and Hito might take sure hands for higher TV.

Anyway I like the runner, he is useful as a primary ball carrier and he got character.

[Aliboon]

You have AG4 you don't need ball handling skills.

Maybe SH v Stripball et al, all you'll ever need.

[Overhamsteren]

You have AG4 you don't need ball handling skills.

Well 1's happen more often than snakes.

[Smeborg]

Thanks, guys, interesting insights.

While my heart wants to take no ball movement skills, my head says I should maybe take two:

- Sure Hands on a Blodge Blitzer (one already has MA8, he might be a candidate).

- Kick as first skill on a Lino, leaving the other 6 to be pure Linos. This would be the sole exception to "blodging up" first.

I might also consider KoR on the MA8 Blitzer, after Dodge and S-Hands, of course (should he get that far). That may depend on whether I have another MA8 player by that stage (such players being obvious candidates for the one-turn-score).

I have encountered the build with only the AV8 players, it works well enough, but seems rather dull to me. I like the Witches, clearly they are not as durable as other players. My answer to this is to build them as suicide blitzers, effective at any skill level, and you don't care (too much) when they die (they are easy to skill up):

- Wrestle, Tackle, Leap, Pro (Juggernaut on doubles)

I find the Runners rather indifferent in performance. The main justification for one is as a Leader caddy, but whenever I take 1 or 2 of them they spend a lot of time in the dugout (or missing games), and I feel the need to hide them when on the pitch. This does not suit the way the team plays, a sure sign that you should consider dropping them. With 2 Witches and 1 Kicker (no other specialists) you will never have more than 3 players that you need to shield on the first turn of defense (easily done).

All the best.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Kor on an elf team is about the worst mistake you can make.

[dines]

Agree with the witches but ss is also nice on them. Can also see the value in kick, but kor would be a waste, especially on your ma8! Can see the reason for kor on slow low ag teams, but haven't really tried it myself.

[Hitonagashi]

I'm with Jimmy, cut out KoR. You are paying one skill to occasionally save yourself a 2+ pass when you have set your entire team up deep. You are a really fast team, just start your offense a few squares further back! You'll have to stall anyway. It's a different matter when every square is vital for a grinding team, but for elves, you *really* don't need it.

I'd also cut Leap on a Witch Elf. As a suicide blitzer, just send her straight into the cage on a 5+. It's still a 50%(ish) chance with her dodge when you want to, and if they don't make a true X cage, then it's easier still. I don't know if you've tried the elf dodging on a 5+, but it's surprisingly reliable, and also adds far more shock factor to it, as people don't protect as much against it. It's the same odds as a 1d put-down with tackle against a blodger! Instead, I'd take Side Step. I may love that skill too much...but seriously, if you are using her for juggernaut surfs, then sidestep is going to be your best friend.

Kick on a lino is great. If you play super high TV, so is DP (beastmen piling on stomping fun). I'd certainly do that. Wrodge on a lineman is worth considering, tie him to valuable high ST targets (such as bashers with no tackle), and they've got the well known 1/9 of putting themselves on the ground while 2d'ing him.

I'd actually wait for a +AG before taking Sure Hands. +AG Sure Hands elves are nasty, as they are amazing ball retrievers on defense too. When you get a +AG, you will be using him as your retriever, and retrievers are best with SH.

As to whether I'd go without SH entirely if I didn't +AG..I don't know. I usually tend to on FUMBBL, but that's because I quite frequently design builds that are *extremely* weak against Wood Elves, but give improved performance against everyone else (in Majors, you don't tend to see that many Wood Elf teams). I honestly don't think you need it against anyone else, and I'm always loathe to take a skill just for one race. If there's lots, or even just a few good wood elf players in your league, I suppose I would, but usually I just try and outplay them, even if their build gives them an advantage to start.

[narg]

As to whether I'd go without SH entirely if I didn't +AG..I don't know. I usually tend to on FUMBBL, but that's because I quite frequently design builds that are *extremely* weak against Wood Elves, but give improved performance against everyone else (in Majors, you don't tend to see that many Wood Elf teams). I honestly don't think you need it against anyone else, and I'm always loathe to take a skill just for one race. If there's lots, or even just a few good wood elf players in your league, I suppose I would, but usually I just try and outplay them, even if their build gives them an advantage to start.

Never played on FUMBBL but at high TV I guess you should start to see freaks appearing all over the place, like orc blitzers with +AG, leap and strip-ball. Surely wood-elves aren't the only ones to try that?

[Smurf]

Do I need to play fummbl? I consider myself a decent coach but I know there are lurkers on there who just want to flatten teams.