Kick It & Undead (short one...)

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Joaquim

Post by Joaquim »

I guess in some games the 3 points TD can make the score track a little small.... :)

But if people hate so much the 2/3 points... why not just make a FG work only 2/3s of times (that is 3+ on a D6).... of course it can be fine adjusted with a D8, or whatever if one wants... after all a FG only counts if it goes over the bar isn't it?....
I know FGs are hard to get (that's what i hear, anyway) and this can make them fewer, but the work/reward ratio stays the same....


About pools: actually I wasn't thinking of a swiming pool :D ... and neither of a poll (I guess).... I was thinking of something more like.... you know that "stock market barons" wich get together buying a stock to make it's price raise... or a interest group.... well, I guess someone interested (if there is) get the ideia by now....
I just have no ideia if that is a pool, a poll or anything completly diferent... :lol:

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Ghost of Pariah
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Post by Ghost of Pariah »

I guess it's just a silly little thing for me. The "kicker" just seems forced, ya know? Don't get me wrong, it works. I just think that if I were a skaven coach I wouldn't have my linerats kicking when my gutter runners are so much better at it. lol

The thing is, the kickers do need to be looked at just a little bit. For example, I feel there should a 0-2 option for them. It really sucks to build up a 0-1 type position only to have him die...or worse yet age in some unforgiving ageing system. We also need to address the the significant advantage that the kicker gives to some teams. Giving the dwarfs a 3 player with MA 6 and AG 3 is worth alot more than giving the skaven another linerat. I think the kickers need to be tailored towards the team they play for. For example the dwarf kicker should be a "dwarf kicker". Sit back and think about what a dwarf would do in that job. He would pump iron with his legs. He would design shoes to help him get better distance and he would probably be well armoured for his prestigous position. Instead of just using a runner (who is from the fluff, a mountain runner, younger dwarfs) I would think the kicker would be an older dwarf. I think a 4 3 2 9 Strong Leg, Thick Skull, Block 70K dwarf fits the dwarf team better. He's an old longbeard skilled at booting the ball a long way! No kick skill fits with the runner not starting with pass.

For somebody like the Skaven I would modify a gutter runner. take away agility skills and trade dodge for kick.

What i'm saying is make the dwarfs kick like dwarfs, not humans.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Pariah wrote:they play for. For example the dwarf kicker should be a "dwarf kicker". Sit back and think about what a dwarf would do in that job. He would pump iron with his legs. He would design shoes to help him get better distance and he would probably be well armoured for his prestigous position. Instead of just using a runner (who is from the fluff, a mountain runner, younger dwarfs) I would think the kicker would be an older dwarf. I think a 4 3 2 9 Strong Leg, Thick Skull, Block 70K dwarf fits the dwarf team better. He's an old longbeard skilled at booting the ball a long way! No kick skill fits with the runner not starting with pass.
Actually an early version of the kicker position that Chet and I were working on together did just that.

Human Kicker had Hook Kick, Kick
Skaven, Chaos: Kick, Extra Leg
Orc/Dwarf: Strong Leg
Goblin: Dirty Kick

This was a sample of what we had put together. As we went through it all, concerns over simplicity became an issue so it was toned back down. The Dwarf Kicker is really one of the few players that probably needs adjusted since a lot of folks have argued against the extra AG 3 player on the team. So your statements are not in left field here at all, Pariah, something to talk about.

Galak

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Post by Milo »

GalakStarscraper wrote:The reasoning for the Kicker position on each roster was this:

Kick is currently a general skill. Virtually every roster is one skill roll away from having a kicker. IE unlike passing skills, virtually every team can develop a kicker without doubles.

Following this logic, when creating the kicking rules, the Kick was desired to be move to the Kicking category. However now all those teams like Undead that used to be able to create a kicker with a normal skill roll cannot. This led to the eventual decision to add a Kicker position to each roster which return the teams back more to Kicker being a normal part of the team.
Note that the "we" Galak is referring to is the MBBL. The semi-official printed Kicking rules intentionally do not include a Kicker for every team.

Milo

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Post by D'Arquebus »

Galak said
Listen at this point, I'd be really happy if the Handbook included an Official Optional Rule Section in the back.
I would be very much behind that. Particularily because I will fight tooth and nail to stop the Kicking rules becoming official. But before I get into that, I will say Galak's idea is good because it would get rules which some seem to like into codified availability without forcing them onto others.

Some on this post have complained of low agility teams getting 1 extra competent ball handler. Personally, I would complain more of every speed team gaining a 1 turn scoring ability, particularily if it was 1 point for TD and 1 for a Field Goal. (Under that points sceme you would give the Skaven, Wood Elves, and every other quick team a 1 turn TD equivalent without the need to actually advance and get a lucky MV advance).

(As an aside I would consider 1 for FG and 2 for TD a simple and smart option, if forced to acept these rules at all. It is easier to keep track of and less unbalancing in terms of game effects. Also in most FG scoring games in the "real world" you get half of an unconverted try for a FG.)

As to the main gist of this thread originally, the undead and every team needs a kicker if anyone can get one. We are not talking about the ability to move the ball here (as in some teams not getting a thrower) we are talking about a new way of scoring. The fact that MV and AG count far more then ST on the kick anyway already gives the speedy teams a huge scoring advantage when kicking.

Chaos warrior has MV 5, pushes twice and ST 4 (total 11 squares on kick) meaning a 5+ kick (with AG3) then a 3+ distance to succeed.

High Elf catcher has MV 8, pushes twice and ST 3 (total 13 squares on kick) meaning 4+ kick (with AG4) and automatic distance/success.

That is not to mention the different ability of both of these players getting through the line or back field set up of the opposition to be in a position to score, where again the higher AG of the elf will win out.

Now that match up follows pretty closely for most of the strength vs the speed teams. The strength teams have a very difficult time stopping a 2 turn Td as it is. Now that is fine and good, it is the differing styles of game these two teams play. But adding a new and very potent trick to the speed teams playbook is a mistake.

I have in fact been testing these rules. Icedman is going to post the results when we finish the current season, but to lend some in game support to my arguments now I will discuss. My Chaos team has tried and failed 4 times to kick, and that with a MV 6 Chaos Warrior who is better at it then my example above. In comparison the High Elf and Skaven teams have, when they remebered the rules, kicked successfully several times and in several games to beat out the slower teams.

So to finish on a more conciliatory note, by having a official optional rule section you could have these rules for those who wish to play a rugby union style game and not cause a divide with those who do not.

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

D'Arquebus wrote: High Elf catcher has MV 8, pushes twice and ST 3 (total 13 squares on kick) meaning 4+ kick (with AG4) and automatic distance/success.
I've generally found that a 2 Pass Block player defense shut down most one turn plays.

But I'm not arguing with your other points. I'd really like to see the kicking rules not be official BB rules, BUT I really would like them official printed in the back under a true optional rules section.

Galak

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Post by Sushé Wakka »

I was feeling curious.. Why a ghoul kicker? I mean, that's adding a player with three skill lists to the roster. I can only think of three players in the whole game with access to three lists (the elven throwers - I'm not counting Skavens nor Chaos because the Phisycal abilities list is a traits list), and I don't like players with that many lists (just feel uncomfortable with the idea). If the necromantic team ever gets an "oficial" kicker, I'd rather have a Wight kicker (since they have only access to General skills, a wight kicker should have access to two lists, which seems better to me)

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Post by GalakStarscraper »

Ghouls are scorers ... Wights are Blitzers.

Make a Wight Kicker and you actually degradate the team's overall power.

Galak

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Post by wesleytj »

GalakStarscraper wrote:Listen at this point, I'd be really happy if the Handbook included an Official Optional Rule Section in the back.

I see two things that I'd place in that section:
Kicking
On-Pitch Spellcasters

Both have been tested over and over again, but the truth is that they should be optional not forced.

I don't know if we could ever get an Official Optional Rule Section, but that's were I think kicking should go.

Galak
I'd be all for that...great idea.

if only somebody on the bbrc heard this... I'm sure THEY could do something about that.... :)

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Post by Colin »

I would go for that as well, but I think that the people at fanatic probalby wouldn't go for an Optional Rules section as they may consider 'optional rules' to be similar to house rules and don't need to be included.

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