Need your ideas and analysis for my 3rd Season Dark Elves

[Coach Grievous]

I've played in our local league for two seasons now with my Dark Elf team (named perhaps unimaginatively after the Darkside Cowboys). After the summer, I'm looking to go onto my third season and right now I'm looking critically at the past seasons and my play to develop answers in order to address issue in my play style. I'm hoping to use some crowd sourcing on the forums here to do that, so I'm gonna present some of my own analysis and I'm hoping you'd be kind enough to look at what I'll be showing, helping me with stepping up my game. Tell me if I'm doing something differently or oddly, where I'm performing differently than you'd expect, etc. anything you have, I'd love to hear it! I haven't seen analysis like this done before and I'm not sure if it is interesting to others to partake in it, but I'm hoping you get something out of it and contribute.

My first season in the league was marked by early difficulties as the league was bash heavy and my opponent's inflicted a casualty spiral on me that proved troublesome for quite some time. By the end of the league, I was doing all right and the team was looking good (mostly because I was rolling insanely good earnings out of all my matches so building the team and replacing losses was quick). I came in third in the league, but was defeated on the first round of the play-offs by the Lizardmen who went on to win the trophy.

For the second season, I was looking pretty damn good team-wise and the amount of development in the team (plus the amount of rookie teams I would be facing) allowed me to avoid any kind of casualty spiral. I came in second in the league itself, but lost in the semi-finals to a Skaven team (on its first season) who went on to lose to the Dwarf team. We play a bronze game as well in this league, so I did manage to win that in the end.

So, overall it hasn't been bad, but I want to move on to an even tighter game so any insights are appreciated.

Notes on General Playstyle

I tend to go for a 2-1 Grind and usually allow the opponent to receive and attack first. If the opponent is particularly nasty (ie. I believe he can use the first half to simply grind out my team via CAS), I will switch to attacking first myself, hoping to set the pace (making it more of a scoring game than a killing game). I have tried receiving first when facing AV7 teams, with the intent of grinding them out via early physical play, but this hasn't been too wildly successful.

On offense the ball (carried by the Runner) is covered by loose screens. I usually aim to divide the opposing team into parts and to aggressively control access to territory (both on offense and defense). I focus on a running game on offense with passes somewhat downplayed and used mainly to switch the point of attack laterally to bypass the defense (usually after splitting the opposing team in parts).

The defensive setup I use is the standard ziggurat (with side-step on the corners and as much side-step on the LoS pieces to hopefully deny the middle lane as well) or - if facing bash - an asymmetrical ziggurat in order to - again - split the team.

Statistics

1st Season

11 matches (5 wins, 2 draws, 4 losses)

18 TDs scored, 16 TDs received
7 CAS inflicted, 21 CAS received

2nd Season

14 matches (11 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses)

27 TDs scored, 15 TDs received
7 CAS inflicted, 26 CAS received

Both Seasons

25 matches (16 wins, 3 draws, 6 losses) (64%, 12%, 24%)

45 TDs scored (1,8 per game)
31 TD received (1,24 per game)

14 CAS inflicted (0,56 per game)
47 CAS received (1,88 per game)

Notes on the Stats:

The first thing that sticks to my mind is that the first season looks a lot worse than the second. That seems congruent with accepted statistics and beliefs that Dark Elves get better with time. Also, I was still trying things out and finding a playstyle that works.

The one thing that looks pretty terrible is the Casualty difference (-33)! There's two sides to that and while elves do take a lot of casualties and I'm not sure if I'm suffering them more than normal, I do feel that I've been very bad in inflicting them. Part of that I would blame on luck, but certainly a lack of Mighty Blow and perhaps gamesmanship is to blame. This is the thing I want to do better! I -need- to hit harder and if I can manage that, I think I'll be able to rise to another level of play.

Individual Games:

To get more out of this, I need to look at the individual games where I performed poorly.

Below are listed all lost and drawn games:

LOSSES

Lizardmen - TD: 2-3 - CAS: 1-2

A double 1 (on a scoring attempt) leads to loss of ball which the Skinks immediately convert to a TD. Ouch!

Lizardmen - TD: 2-3 - CAS: 3-5

Quarter Final. Overtime loss.

Skaven - TD: 2-3 - CAS: 2-2

Semi Final. Overtime loss. Before this match I had done some TR shuffling to keep from giving inducements (a BB babe or equivalent). This led to me playing with no bench at all. At one point, I was unable field a full team on the pitch (luckily this didn't last long). Kinda decided that I wouldn't be doing similar stuff in the future (unless dodging a Wizard, perhaps).

Dwarf - TD: 0-2 - CAS: 0-4

A very nasty, developed Dwarf team which won the second season. At a loss for what to do against this monster, really.

Orc - TD: 0-1 - CAS: 0-1

Double 1s rolled, so I fail to tie the game.

Necromantic - TD: 0-3 - CAS: 0-1

A very early game for the team. Not sure what happened there.

DRAWS

Human - TD: 2-2 - CAS: 0-3

2-0 lead going to halftime and my feeling was that accumulated casualties cost me the second half.

Orc - TD: 1-1 - CAS: 0-0

Problems picking up the ball cause me to run out time in the first half, so I can't tie the game.

I quickly score at the start of the second half, but in the subsequent offensive phase of the orcs, they don't even try to attack and only defend their tie (this was the bottom team of the league at the time and apparently felt that a tie against me was glorious enough). Though the ball is driven almost to their end zone, I fail to pop it free, snatch it and score.

Chaos Dwarf - TD: 1-1 - CAS: 1-1

First game with the team. Don't remember many details.

Individual Game Analysis

One thing that jumps out at me is that I tend to run into trouble when the opponent manages to score twice. This seems logically a problem area when most games tend to end in a 2-1 Grind.

Only once have I won when the opponent scored twice (which has happened 7 times), which was against Pro Elves in a match where I never really lost the momentum (of being able to match TD for TD).

The second thing that strikes me is that I have always lost on overtime (and both times the opponent was a fast team, ie. Skaven and Lizardmen). There's something about the really fast teams that can convert a mistake into an immediate goal that gives me issues, especially when combined with mounting casualties.

Also, I fail a lot of double 1s that would directly lead to scores. Nuffle hates Elves.

Team Development:

Blitzer - Block, Dodge, Sidestep
Blitzer - Block, Dodge, Sidestep, NORMAL SKILL
Blitzer - Block, Dodge, Sidestep, ST+1
Blitzer - Block, Dodge, Guard, Sidestep

Witch Elf - Dodge, Frenzy, Jump Up, Mighty Blow
Witch Elf - Dodge, Frenzy, Jump Up, Block, Sidestep, Tackle

Lineman - AG+1, Dodge, Sidestep
Lineman - Guard
Lineman - Kick, AV-1

3x Rookie Linemen
1x Rookie Runner

13 total players

3 Re-Rolls
1 Apothecary

TV 1890K

Development Conclusions:

The amount of CAS I receive tends to make me favor Blodge, Sidestep on EVERYTHING. The more that there is going on, the less casualties I take. Elves should build for endurance, because they do everything else pretty damn well already.

I don't have a good place for Wrestle anymore (though I'd love to have in some of the Blitzers ALONG with Block, to give plenty of options). I did have Wrestle on one of my Witch Elfs (now retired after AG-1). Block overall seems better at restricting access to territory, though (while Wrestle would be great for giving me access to turf restricted by the opponent). Right now I'm concerned more with turning my Witch Elves into CAS machines to contemplate Wrestle.

Usually, I don't like Strip Ball. I don't think it works that well late in development, nor am I particularly phased by it even when it comes up against me early. So, I assume my opponent's aren't either. I am, however, contemplating it as another piece of the effective Dark Elven defense package.

Leap would be great! Sometimes, it is just the thing for a desperate score, besides the great defensive options it gives. I've been waiting for the AG 5 dudes to come in for this, though.

I have Mighty Blow on a WE now for the first time. I wonder how that will change things. Statistically, it should double the Casualties I get from Blitzes. That feels significant.

...

So, to anyone who actually read this far, looking at my statistics, reading my thinking... what strikes you? What do you find strange? What can I do better?

[Khail]

I'll have to reply with more info when I have more time - but things look pretty good. When I retired my DEs after 4 seasons, I had a Mighty Blow Witch Elf that racked up 27 casualties over the course of her run (she died shortly before the playoffs in Season 4). By comparison, the next highest CAS on the team was 8 - so it will definitely make a difference.

DEs tend to take a lot more CAS than they give, especially early on before they rack up a decent amount of BlodgeStep.

Your only skill choice that raised a question for me was the Sidestep on your AG5 Line Elf. I would have taken Leap in a heartbeat... after Wrestle or Block. Since he's only going to get 5 skills, an early +AG means I'd make him my cage breaker. Block or Wrestle, Dodge for protection, Tackle or Strip Ball, +AG, Leap.

A little bit of shameless bragging - here's Dread at the end of their career (after winning the Thunderbowl): Link.

Don't look too closely at Vashir - he may burn out your retinas.

[TheDoc]

What strikes me is that you are conceeding so many TDs. DEs are mainly a defensive team with the ability to cover all the pitch with the WE and blitzers. I think that your strategy is a bit off in regards to this. The 2-1 grind doesn't work for DEs as well as other teams (orcs/dwarves) you need to be far more flexible with the approach and to be flexible you need 2 things (1) Players on the pitch (2) freedom to move. In light of this I wouldn't have taken all that Side step on every player I would have a couple with Fend. This prevents players following you up and gives you an easier time to redeploy but you will dodge on a 2+.

You take far to many Cas which means to me you are trying bash with this team. They are not a bash team. You need to give the opponent 1 blitz a turn if they are orcs/dwarves/lizards/even a bashy skaven or humans. Dodge away from players one space like woodies and force them to go left and right to get around you. I use Dark elves as the ultimate plan B team. You have the ball in a cage and they stop the cage... well hand it off backwards (2+), pass laterally or forward to an open player (2+ or 3+), catch (2+), run away! suddenly you are the other side of the pitch out of blitzing range (or have a friend with you to stop the blitz). I like a blitzer as my receiver as the move 7 and have block immediately. With Dodge and Fend he will be a monster (an Ag boost and it will be an amazing player).

Your players are ok, the AG5 lino should have leap, block, tackle, strip ball. He is a "blitzer" who will get the ball for you and then run away/hand it off to a blitzer who will run in a score.

Ditch the kicker. Get a new kicker by scoring twice with a lino. With Ag4 and planning you can score with anyone on this team. AV7 on this team is a liability.

The runner I rarely use. Use the AG5 elf on offense to pick up the ball and pass it if you need to or run the ball. AG5 makes him an excellent thrower and will skill him up even quicker.

I offense I found the screen was better than the cage as it gives you more flexibility. Though against woodies and maybe skaven (if not a bashy team) I may cage for a bit with the idea that I will break the cage early and get the ball away from the opposition ASAP to a free player who can't be caught (blitzers or WEs due to MA7).

On Defense I would always send at least 1 player to hassle the ball. This forces the opponent to go to one side or the other and will make your life easier as you can predict the direction of the ball. Other than that stand back and force them to go laterally as soon as they blitz forward you can hit them back or just back up 1 more square if needs be. Plasmoids site has a good play book for dark elves. May be worth a read.

[Coach Grievous]

Thanks guys, I'll get back to this with more, but for now just two quick notes on the players: the way I wrote it as a bit unclear, but the AG+1 lineman actually got the stat boost as his latest raise. As the second Lineman ever to get a skill in the team (the first took Kick), he took Sidestep first (because I needed Sidestep for the LoS to make the Ziggurat work better in denying the center) and Dodge then. He certainly would've developed differently if he got AG+1 first.

The AV-1 Kicker is very likely getting booted and replaced, depending on the fixtures for next season and the nature of the first opponent. I'm just keeping him in there as an option for now (if I for some reason foresee a need for Kick), but yeah.

[Khail]

A bit more on playstyle - playing my DEs I never went for a 2-1 grind. I almost always chose to receive first and scored as quickly as possible, stalling only if the half was winding down. Once I had enough BlodgeStep to run an asymmetrical defense, that's almost all I used, and I in no way shape or form valued Side Step over basic defensive skills like Block/Wrestle or Dodge. Get the basics first, then the vanity skills. You’ll take less casualties – and a standing elf is always better than a knocked down elf, even if he’s knocked down in the “right place” via Side Step. If you can’t live without Side Step on the LOS, put a Blitzer up there until you develop a good Line Elf for it.

Get comfy on defense. Offense is easy - you're an Elf team with lots of options to score. What Dark Elves do better than any other elf team though is defense. Don’t be afraid to fight – you’re going to have to dive into the scrum to come out with the ball most of the time. With enough Blodge/Side Step, your Blitzers and Witches can make a mess of any cage. It requires a certain amount of recklessness to run headfirst into a mess of ClawPOMB, but you’re not going to win games running away from the ball. Don’t give away blocks without a good chance of staying standing though – stay away from Tackle when you can.

Runners are “ok”, but not at all necessary. If I build another DE team in the future I’ll leave the Runners out. Over the course of 51 games, I think I actually used Dump Off successfully 3 or 4 times. If your plan is to let them get a block on your ball carrier, get a new plan. Just go for more AV8. Ball handling skills like Catch/Pass/Kick Off Return, and to a certain extent Sure Hands are extraneous. In an ideal game, you’re only playing offense once, so build your players with skills to help on defense and leave offense to the High Elves. You won’t have trouble scoring with MA7 and AG4 anyway.

[Coach Grievous]

I don't think so much go for the 2-1 Grind (as yeah, it is indeed more a Bash team's strategy), but that I have found that most games end in that manner. If we look at how my winning games have ended score-wise, we come up with a table like this:

3-2 : 1
3-1 : 1
3-0 : 1
3-1 : 1
2-0 : 3
2-1 : 8
1-0 : 1

A whole whopping 50% are 2-1 results. Of course, the score is all about defense success and defense-to-goal conversion. I'm certainly interested in working on this part of my game, but as we all know good players don't just hand out balls.

It's interesting that the two of you ultimately propose very different defensive schemes. That actually seems to be a rather common thing in discussions concerning elven defense, especially for Dark Elves.

The first approach is to basically always dodge away your entire team away, with the problem being in actually popping the ball free the opposition. The second approach says to seize the moment at the point of the opponent's vulnerability, to go for the scrum then and try to pop the ball free. The caveat with this style is that it can backfire and you get pounded. I think Dark Elves are a versatile team and there is no dire necessity to live entirely on one part of the spectrum. Depending on what happens on the pitch and on the opponent in question, you can tweak your approach.

The thing with the first approach though is that a good opponent will score if you only keep at arm's length unless you steal the ball, barring very bad luck on their part, as they "swallow" any and all downed players with their formation, leading to the defensive wall cracking open.

Dedicated ball stealers ala Wardancers who do surgical strikes make it possible to take the ball away without needing to engage your entire team, but this is risky and will usually result in a massed foul against the offending player. To stop the massed foul, or to save other players swalloed by their formation and in the absence of ball retrieval specialists to dodge/leap into the cage, you have to engage the enemy team on a wider front, leading to play in the style of the second approach.

I certainly agree that Runners aren't necessary in the Dark Elven team, but I do find Dump Off interesting. Obviously, the tactic isn't to make them hit your Runner, but if you screen well if will be a pain to even reach the Runner ball carrier and thus it will probably only be one or two players who get near him. At that point, Dump Off can be hugely irritating to the opposition. Still, I can definitely see the point of favoring more AV8 players on the field.

Though Assassins are widely considered crap, and my own brief flirtations with them mostly confirm this (well, unless you happen to play in a league with an overabundance of blodging AV7), but I'm really starting to consider Leaping Assassins an interesting defensive option as ball retrievers.

I'd need to do the math, but my gut feeling says that their success rate compared to the usual options might actually be better. A succesful surgical attack on the cage requires two parts: getting there (with skill the following skill sets being useful: Ag4+Leap, Ag5+Leap, Ag5 with no leap) and the subsequent uphill block (where Block, Wrestle, Tackle, Strip Ball are the order of the day). An assassin has a unique solution to part 2 of the problem.

[TheDoc]

As I said in my 1st post. It is about being flexible. You need to surgically strike if you can. Force the opponent to think of another strategy rather than his primary one. You also need to cover the angles so if there is a breakaway you can cover it. Dark elves are the ultimate plan B team. You can recover from a lot of situations.

Defense yeah you can go a lot of ways. I set up three on the line with my blitzers on the widezones close to the hash marks. Witch elves are just inside the has marks in the centre so you can frenzy toward the sidelines if they come that way. The other line-elves stand in front of the witches to prevent any blitz toward them. Kick so they have to pick up. Then depending on where the ball lands I make a decision: Wait to see what they are trying to do (hit and mark any potential receivers or keep formation and hit straglers) OR send players to hassle the ball. You can do either that is up to you. One thing I would say is don't engage a cage of orcs/dwarves you will lose players and probably the game. It is about your play style. Mine works for me. Quick teams yeah I hit them but remain flexible enough that they can't go around me. Bash teams I stand off and force them to go around and then I redirect the defense and force them to try again. A blitzer with leap +1AG then you have a weapon where you surround a cage remove assists and then hit the ball carrier. With Dark elves there is no set way of doing things but I think most coaches agree they are defense first and are good because they defend so well.

Offense: Easy you are elves AG4 and hence you can hand off, pass and run away the length of the field in one turn. Job done! Of course it's not that easy always but in my experience 2 TDs a game is easy most of the time. You can get three if you defense turns the ball over.

Read the playbooks on plasmoids site they will help. They helped me get a good idea of the team and some tactics.

Hope win your season.

[vaccine]

How are people using Runners? I saw above someone had them as a pass/receiver pair. I've been playing DE a lot on Cyanide the last few weeks as a possible new team in an upcoming table top league, but I've struggled to fit this piece in to the point where most times I find a Line elf would have been better, or they're just a vehicle for Leader. I've stopped getting two entirely now, and tend to build the one as I say, with Leader, Blodge or Wrodge and then just stuff to keep him alive.

[TheDoc]

I don't bother with them. The dump off goes against my style of play. I don't leave my players open to get hit if I can help it so the skill is useless to me. I take another lineman and get them to do it they are Ag 4. If I want a MA 7 piece I have 6 of them on the normal team.

[dines]

Reg. the runner, I developed one with dodge, pass, acc. as a thrower/runner type player. Gave me some more options regarding playstyle, but would probably ditch him if I gave dark elves another go. I never used dump-off in the 24 games I had him (two seasons of tt).

[JaM]

I see dump-off on the runner as a 'bonus'. He's got good movement, can get to the ball quite fast,... ergo I develop them as a thrower/carrier, make him hand off the ball to another player who will either score or throw the ball (very, very short)to the scoring player. Or pick up the ball with the runner, hand off to another player, and let that player throw to the runner again.

He's quite good in getting the ball where it needs to be, and the launching another player towards the endzone witht he ball. He can easily hang back.

Assassins arent my thing. Not enough movement or armour, too fragile for me. The idea is decent though, and I like the current DE roster better than the 'original' one.

[Smurf]

Need more tackle?