Aztec Philosophy

[Hitonagashi]

Humans are weaker than other tier 1s. However, unless the coaches are of approximately equal standard, you won't notice it.

[mattgslater]

Okay, time for this team to morph.

It was a fun adventure in outbashing crazy monsters with humans. Now, they're at the point where I want them to actually beat good coaches. After two narrow losses against solid coaching, the time had come for me to watch my own film, analyze where I'm going wrong, and come up with a solution.

Before I watched the tape, I had some preconceptions about what I'd see. The commitment a Guard-intensive team needs to put into manpower in order to win the bash war means they're somewhat vulnerable to speed, if the speed team is heavy enough not to just get mowed down. Well-coached Necromantic and Undead, Dark Elves with crazy Cas luck, those are the games I lose. Bash teams can fight back, but aren't ready for my mobility; they mostly get swarmed and shut down in a few turns. I have too much Block (11, including the Ogre ) for most teams to manage, and will soon have loads of Fend, 2x Tackle, and a POMBer of my own to make life hell for Chaos and Lizards (at which point I will ice the team for tourneys).

I watched the tape again, and the truth is, their problem has been a combination of bad luck and playing to build when it didn't pay off. Really, they should have won one of those ties and one of the losses, but for a silly in-the-moment mistake that I can only resolve not to repeat, and a crazy bounce that followed. After reviewing the tape, I do feel better about my play. The only game in which I genuinely got outplayed was the most recent one, against the excellent JigerJones, which of course is the game on which the above preconceptions were founded.

So my plan is to do the stuff that I know but am not doing. If I'm playing against a coach rated in the 160s, it's not the time to practice blocking into extra hits vs. a 2-back defense, with ten men vs. eleven and no Side Step on the pitch. Let's see where just doing it right and playing to win goes, as opposed to just practicing blocking school and futzing about on the goal line.

[mattgslater]

Some build advice needed. Here's where I am right now.

Ogre: Guard, SF, Block. He's not far from skilling again, and frankly I'm torn between Grab, Break Tackle, and Piling on. Doubles would be Pro. I'd take +ST, because he already has Block, but no other stats.

Blitzers: Two have Guard, one has Guard/MB, and one has SS; all but one (one of the Guard guys) are within a TD of skilling. My thinking is Fend for the first Guard player to improve, SF for the second, Fend for the SS guy, and PO for the G/MB guy, using it only on stuns and only when I don't need the Guard. Alternately, I could give him Tackle, and cut my B/T lino. I really wanted to give my #4 Blitzer MB, then PO, but the dice didn't want me to do it, so I have to find an alternate route. Doubles would be Guard/SS, G/MB/JU, or SS/JU. (No Dodge policy.) I'll take all AG and ST buffs, and +MA on the SS guy. (Easy 1TTD.)

Thrower: Block, Fend. He's more-or-less a lineman in my book, except on offense, when he starts deep with the +AG player. If he improves, I guess I might consider Accurate; on doubles, it's Guard like any lineman. But he just got his second roll, so he may have to wait awhile.

Linemen: Wrestle; Block/Fend; Block/Tackle; Block/Guard; Block/Frenzy/Tackle; Block/+AG. None are close to skilling again. Wrestle guy and Guard guy will get Fend next; Frenzy guy and AG guy are scheduled for Pro. Not sure what to do with Tackle guy. One thing I'm thinking about doing is cutting him and hiring two rookies at +10k, building one in the Block/Fend track and maybe making a DP of the other. (Funny enough, I've never had a DP on FUMBBL; I hate fouling unless I have a tactical edge, but it's sometimes smart.) But it's not like 3x Tackle is all that excessive....

So, questions:
1) What next for the Ogre?
2) Block/Tackle lino: keep or dump? If keep, how do I develop him? Keep him until he improves and cut him if he doesn't double or 11?
3) MB/G Blitzer: Tackle, PO, or something else?
4) Should the 7th lineman be another Block/Fend guy, or should I finally pick up a DP?

[Jimmy Fantastic]

No fend. sack ss guy asap. spam guard mb po. minmax to the max!

[mattgslater]

Spamming MB has something to be said for it: that's my convention, to spam Guard and MB, then diversify, and I know for a fact that it usually works well. Not so sure about spamming PO: I'm a positioner and kind of block-heavy, so I get poor force-multiplier from spamming PO, though one is lots of fun. SS guy is fun and useful, though he'll be even better after Guard and Fend. Guard before Fend on him, gotcha. 6x Guard would be nice, though 5 feels like enough: I outbash almost everybody I face, even when I lose.

SS is ever-so-slightly suboptimal by comparison to G/MB/PO. But it's a great combo skill, and tons more fun than a #6 Guard player, or of yet another POMBer (to be fair, I've only ever had one POMBer because I simply dislike going prone). Still, I see the merit in what you're saying. Though to be fair it's mostly a matter of TV: he scores a lot and throws a lot of blocks on fragile guys.

Okay, so my thinking now reads:
Ogre (B,G,SF): Grab (Pro, +St)
Blitzer (G): Mighty Blow (SS, +AG, +ST)
Blitzer (G): Mighty Blow (SS, +AG, +ST)
Blitzer (G,M): Piling On (+AG, +ST)
Blitzer (SS): Guard (JU, +MA, +AG, +ST)
Thrower (B,F): Accurate (Guard, +MA, +AG, +ST)
Lineman (B,+AG): Pro (Guard, +AG, +ST)
Lineman (B,G): Fend (SS, +AG, +ST)
Lineman (B,Fr,T): Pro (MB, +ST)
Lineman (B,T): Fend or Retire (MB, +AG, +ST)
Lineman (B,F): Tackle or Retire (Guard, +AG, +ST)
Lineman (W): Fend (SS, +ST)

[mattgslater]

So, do I take your silence for agreement, or do you just think I'm way off and don't know a polite way to say it?

[Bathoz]

Answer:

1) What next for the Ogre? Grab for me. A block/ST/Guard ogre is a great piece to have standing up, so not PO. Break tackle is solid I guess, but still... you're positioning mad, so grab.

2) Block/Tackle lino: keep or dump? If keep, how do I develop him? Keep him until he improves and cut him if he doesn't double or 11? I'm entirely why you want to cut him, but if you replace him with a dp, that's a good thing. Humans and fouling go together. Also, I know you want the structure of an entire teams standing up. But building a wrestle/tackle/dauntless ball hunter with a lineman might not be awful.

3) MB/G Blitzer: Tackle, PO, or something else? Kill.

4) Should the 7th lineman be another Block/Fend guy, or should I finally pick up a DP? See question 2.

[mattgslater]

Now, to talk about offensive and defensive structures:

My first concern with this team is the defensive line. For the moment, I have the two Block/Fend players (lino, Thrower) and the Wrestle Lino, or against low-Guard teams like elves, maybe the Ogre plus the two Fend'ers. I'm thinking I lack the power/durability in the middle to run an effective sideline defense, so the 3-3-5 convention so popular in FUMBBL is probably best, or some variant on it. Because I have Fend'ers, I can run any defensive line I like, including a 303 line (with linemen hugging both wide zones and another one in the middle) to spread the offense out. Normally I don't like doing that, because by blocking and following they can pin my guys in place. But with Fend, it's a bit different.

– – – –|f – – w – – f|– – – –
– – – –|– – – – – – –|– – – –
– – – –|x – g o g – x|– – – –
– – – –|– x – x – x –|– – – –

– – – –|f – – w – – f|– – – –
– – – –|– – – – – – –|– – – –
– – – –|x – – x – – x|– – – –
– – – –|– x – o – x –|– – – –
– – – –|– – x – x – –|– – – –

– – – –|– – f O f – –|– – – –
– – – –|g x – – – x g|– – – –
– s g –|– – – – – – –|– g – –
– – – –|– – – – – – –|– – x –

[mattgslater]

On offense, I've got two basic strategies, depending on my opponent and their setup.

1) Protect the ball, seal out one side of the play, beat up the D-line. Then on T2, cage up at midfield, and either open a hole or prepare for a little head-fake action, get downfield, get control of the fight.

2) Cover the ball, use Frenzy to chain my way into extra line-blocks, attempt to entangle/pow/injure as much of the defense as possible and use remaining players to form a cage.

Frankly, I think I can do it all from the same starting lines.

Vs. 101: letters correspond to roster numbers. The Thrower (h) is back at midfield.

Code: Select all

– – – –|– – – f g c –|– – – –
– – – b|– i m d e a –|j – – –
– – – –|– – x x x – –|– – – –
– – – –|– – – – – – –|– – – –
– – – –|x – – x – – x|– – – –
– – – –|– x x – x x –|– – – –
– – – –|– – – x – – –|– – – –

could turn into

Code: Select all

– – – –|– – m – f c –|g – – –
– – – –|e – – i d b *|– – – –
– – – –|– – – – * * –|– – – –
– – – –|x – – x – * a|– – – –
– – – –|– x x – x – *|– – – –
– – – –|– – – x – – j|– – – –

f with the ball, in one turn.

[mattgslater]

Blitz-free 1TTD, this team as-is with no Catchers, 9 men. In fact, any 9-man ST3 team with at least one Frenzy and at least one Side Step. It has a cousin that works with one Grab and no Side Step. Yes, it's 7 blocks, including the extra one for Frenzy (8 counting the blitz to get to the endzone), but with proper use of Guard and just one extra man, players 3, 4, 5, and 6 can all block at 3d.

Yes, it's unlikely; even with all those 3d blocks, my blocking odds with no TRR are only 200/729 to get the end into position for chaining; the next four blocks are better, but obviously the chance is not great. It's a 1TTD with pure muscle; what did you expect? But is it not a thing of beauty? Who knows: perhaps one day it will work. I've gotten close before, with less.

Code Key: X = enemy. * = prone enemy. F = Frenzy, S = SS/MA7+. # = player. Assume one player back to catch the ball, and two more players are free to move somewhere. (Or you could be down two men.) A good place for a tenth man is in one of the two squares between 5 and 6, to help ensure a 3d block. 2 and 3 are best with Guard, and 1 too if 4 is ST4 or if you can work out a guy to stand on his outside (so you have 7 on the line), or if the guy between 5 and 6 has Guard and can move into position.

Code: Select all

Setup
- - 5 - - 6 -
F 1 2 S 3 4 -
- X - X - X -
- - - - - - -

A) 2 blocks nose
- - 5 - - 6 -
F 1 - S 3 4 -	
- X - 2 - X -
- - - * - - -

B) Frenzy-chain the end into the SS player
- - 5 - - 6 -
- 1 - X 3 4 -
- - F 2 S X -
- - - * - - -

C) 5 blocks the same player, chaining into 4
- - - - - 6 -
- 1 - 5 X 3 -
- - F 2 S X 4
- - - * - - -

D) 6 blocks him, chaining into SS
- - - - - - -
- 1 - 5 6 3 -
- - F 2 X X 4
- - - * S - -

E) 3 blocks, again chaining into SS.
- 1 - 5 6 - -
- - F 2 3 X 4
- - - * * - -
- - - - S - -

F) 1 moves into place.
- - - 5 6 - -
- - F 2 3 X 4
- - - * * - -
- - - 1 S - -

G) 4 throws the final block.
- - - 5 6 - -
- - F 2 3 4 -
- - - * * - -
- - - 1 * - -
- - - S - - -

H) Get the ball to S.

I) S blitzes into the endzone!

In other news, I won an ugly, grindy 0-1 game with bad luck on both sides. +AG player is MNG. Back to .667 (12-4-5) after a combination of bad luck and silliness got me down to 10-4-5. Hired a new Lino.

[mattgslater]

A different 1TTD against a different DL, last turn of the game. Failed on the ball (tied a game I should have won), but the blocks all worked and I still had my blitz. In retrospect I should have used the Tackle guy where the MB guy was, but that would have forced me to move a Guard before starting, and I wanted to have the guy in case I needed him. (When I get Guard on SS guy, this will no longer be a consideration).

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3316376

Finally got my POMBer and Guard on my SS guy (6 total, plus 11 Block+1 Wrestle on 13 players), TV is an uncomfortable 1730. My Block/Fend lino got 2 MVPs and a TD, and now Sandra Wawrytko is at 29 SPP. I would have been quite content with her never advancing, frankly, but now that she clearly will, I'm looking at my options. Dauntless? Pro? Tackle? Not thrilled by ANY of those; Pro is probably the narrowest of winners, because it means more damage and I have enough Tackle on non-S-access guys. Or I could take Tackle and fire the B/T player and replace him with a rookie. Doubles will be Guard, and much rejoicing.

Players whose tracks I'm comfortable with (* may be soon to skill)
Ogre: B,G,SF - Grab (Pro, +ST)
Blitzer: G* - MB (+AG, +ST)
Blitzer: G* - MB (+AG, +ST)
Blitzer: G,MB,PO - T (JU, +AG, +ST)
Blitzer: G,SS* - Fend (JU, +MA, +AG, +ST)*
Thrower: B,Fend - Acc (G, +MA, +AG, +ST)
Lineman: B,Frenzy,T - Pro (MB, +MA, +AG, +ST)
Lineman: B,G - Fend (SS, +AG, +ST)
Lineman: rookie - Dirty Player (G, +AG, +ST)

Players whose tracks I'm not sure about
Lineman: B,Fend* - Pro? Dauntless? (G, +MA, +AG, +ST)
Lineman: B,+AG* - Fend or Pro? (G, +MA, +AG, +ST)
Lineman: B,T - Another Frenzy? Pro? Dauntless? (MB, +AG, +ST)
Lineman: W - Fend (not at all sure on doubles, 10, 11; obv +ST)

Advice?

[mattgslater]

Hmmm... had a sleep on it. Maybe I should cut the B/T and B/Fend linos plus the B/Fend Thrower, then hire a rookie lino or two. That would save me 190k-240k in TV. Maybe I should wait until AG4 guy skills up before I do, so I have some Sure Hands on the team. That would also give me a chance to skill my POMBer so I can have an extra Tackle, and for the Fend player (Sandra Wawrytko) to double and change my mind.

Perhaps I should wait until I suffer a major involuntary purge, then figure out who to keep and who to cut in the wake.

Here are the questions: in Ranked, or in an open tournament against Nuffle-knows-what, are these worth their weight?

1) 140k vs. all the following:
1a) 2x Block/Fend to tie down Frenzy and POMB and to keep the LOS clean;
1b) 1x Block/Fend/SH to thwart Strip, provide a secondary ball-carrier, and let my +AG guy take Fend or Pro instead of having to burn a skill on Sure Hands;
1c) A second Block/Tackle player so I can kind of keep up with Blodge-heavy teams (and ruin Lizardman teams' day);
1d) Dauntless or Pro on my Fend player;
1e) No non-Block (or at least non-Wrestle) players on the pitch.

2) If I cut all those players, should I replace up to 11 or 12? At 11, I'll be around 1.5M, which makes me think the one guy on my bench is worth it. But not two.

3) I'm carrying a rookie lino as a 13th man. I sometimes need him to form a full squad, but I kind of took him on to eventually pick up DP, and I have to say my heart just isn't in the fouling game. If I cut those three guys above, he'll get Block or Wrestle. If not, should I cut him and save 50k TV?

4) Is there anything to be said for half-measures? Say, keep the Tackle player but cut the B/F players if Sandra improves without doubling (thereby saving 100k+)? I actually kind of like that. If Sandra doubles, OTOH, I can keep the team on as-is, because at ~1800 and 7x Guard they're quite viable. Then, when Mark Wheeler III (POMBer) gets Tackle, they can drop the Tackle guy (unless he has MB or +ST by then...).

[Ullis]

Human linos at three skills without doubles are a real pain. They cost a lot of TV and the fact that after Block or Wrestle you're looking at diminishing returns on normal skills. The flip side of that is that Block linos are really good.

I'd look at making that +AG lino your ball carrier with Sure Hands. He'll be perfect. You could get rid of the thrower at that point.

I'd also give Dirty Player to one player, especially if you're looking to build this team for tournaments. DP is just that good and good value for a 50k lino.

[mattgslater]

OK, so: where I see this team in 5 games

Option A: Fend Lino doubles, and I get a true positioning-game team, with enough Block, Fend and Guard to take on all comers.
Ogre: Block, Guard, SF
Blitzers (2): Guard, MB
Blitzer (1): Guard, POMB
Blitzer (1): SS, Guard, Fend
Thrower: Block, Fend
Lino (2): Block, Guard, Fend
Lino (1): +AG, Block
Lino (1): Block, Frenzy, Tackle
Lino (1): Block, Tackle
Lino (1): Wrestle, Fend
Lino (1): Dirty Player
3RR, 8FF, Apo
1.15M base + 660k skills = 1830k TV
11 Block, 1 Wrestle, 1 none
7 Guard, 4 MB, 1 PO, 2 T, 1 Frenzy
5 Fend (1 w/SS/G, 2 w/G), 1 SF/G (all w/Block or Wrestle)

Option B: Fend Lino doesn't double, and I go minimalist once +AG player goes up.

Ogre: Block, Guard, SF
Blitzers (2): Guard, MB
Blitzer (1): Guard, POMB
Blitzer (1): SS, Guard, Tackle
Lino: +AG, Block, SH
Lino: Block, Guard, Fend
Lino: Block, Frenzy, Tackle
Lino: Wrestle
Lino (3): Rookie (to get Block x2, DP when possible)
3TRR, 8FF, Apo
1.08M base, + 530k skills = 1.61M
8x Block, 1x Wrestle, 3x None
6 Guard, 4 MB, 1 PO, 2 T, 1 Frenzy
1x Fend/G/B, 1x SS/G/B, 1x SF/G/B