A few thoughts on Khemri

[crimsonsun]

I've played Khemri for four league seasons (middle of 4th season now) and absolutely love the team, Decay and 4 AG and all.

In league play, the MiB/Guard route is the way to go with TGs. Nothing earth-shattering but, as others have said, it helps you go numbers up and the Guard reinforces their natural ST-superioty so well. Few teams can handle a Khemri team just a player or two up and mobbed together in a 5ST-Guard nightmare web!

As for Break Tackle, in a league it absolutely has its place as a third skill (maybe even #2) on at least one TG because the team is so slow up front and the TGs get marked by Zombies or Lineman or whatever so easily. This leads your front line to begin drifting apart and that's a problem when containment is your number one priority (when the cas don't come of course!). Being able to Dodge one TG out reliably to get him back into position and away from that Zombie that keeps getting back up can make all the difference. It also helps that TG escort the Thro-Ra downfield, making your cage or screen way more effective.

I'd even argue that one BT is more valuable for the Khemri than the Lizards because they have the speed to recover from rough positioning while the Khemri do not.

In a tourney, I like no skills on the TGs but this is only theorybowl. I'd just take my chances with 2 die blocks and trudging forward with the team. And fouling.

This, I play alot with khemri and although break tackle is not on high on my priority list mighty blow, guard and block obviously coming first, I like to have 2 tomb guardians with SF, and 2 with break tackle as it holds the centre of the team together. I rarely use Break Tackle to make a Blitz, thats what my tackle, frenzy, dauntless POMB blitz-ra's are for or in worst case my wrestle, tackle, throw-ra but being able to shift those Str 5, guarding monsters about really helps mitigate blocks you receive from the other team.

I also rate grab as a 5 or sixth skill its amazing when u really want to gang foul players pulling them away from the safety of there comrades into my waiting DP skellies.

Crimsonsun

[Smeborg]

For those of you who foul a lot with Khemri (which I think is most Khemri coaches!), how many D-Player Skellies is the right number? How do you balance the development of D-Player Skellies with that of Block/Fend Skellies, by number and in time?

[crimsonsun]

I like three DP skellies, and they come first followed by kick unless guard comes up. second skill on DP is wrestle works perfectly with DP, then fend is they get that far, kick skellie gets wrestle then fend. I have a str 4 skellie in 1 team that i am planning to develop into a pain, with block and tackle coming next double with be MB, but barring abnormalities like that i go DP, Wrestle, Fend.

Crimsonsun

[Ullis]

For those of you who foul a lot with Khemri (which I think is most Khemri coaches!), how many D-Player Skellies is the right number? How do you balance the development of D-Player Skellies with that of Block/Fend Skellies, by number and in time?

I'm not much of a fouler with Khemri. Positioning is so much more important that I usually I can't afford to gang foul unless I've gotten some early cas and KO's from blocking.

So I'd say one or two DP's are enough. First two with Block and then a DP. I don't bother with Kick.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

As many DP as u can get and foul 16 times!
Hito - I would take BT as a late skill on a blitzer Saurus, after say Block,MB,Tackle, or on a Blodge Saurus, or on a ballcarrier Saurus.
Early BT works on Bull Centaurs because they are very fast and ballcarriers.
Early BT for other players is a waste of time, especially for slow st5 guys who should be hitting and guarding.

[Smeborg]

For those of you who foul a lot with Khemri (which I think is most Khemri coaches!), how many D-Player Skellies is the right number? How do you balance the development of D-Player Skellies with that of Block/Fend Skellies, by number and in time?

I'm not much of a fouler with Khemri. Positioning is so much more important that I usually I can't afford to gang foul unless I've gotten some early cas and KO's from blocking.

So I'd say one or two DP's are enough. First two with Block and then a DP. I don't bother with Kick.

Ullis - I follow a similar philosophy for Khemri as you (see my OP), but I wanted to know how the systematic foulers do it.

It would appear that there is a similar strategy split for Khemri as for some other teams, with some coaches favouring positional play, and others prioritising the numbers game. As usual, I lean towards position, but for this team I think there is a nice balance to be found between the two.

All the best.

[swilhelm73]

Few teams can handle a Khemri team just a player or two up and mobbed together in a 5ST-Guard nightmare web!

Interestingly, I think there is a sharp distinction between playing against Khemri with an agile team or not.

Have the ability to leap and dodge - and Khemri are unlikely to have a ton of tackle - means elves and skaven are alway a threat because you can't have TGs everywhere.

OTOH, playing a bash or especially hybrid team the Khemri ST/Guard wall is daunting. With my necro team I've found opening space to maneuver and use my speed to be difficult in a way that versus Orcs and Chaos isn't.

[RogueThirteen]

For those of you who foul a lot with Khemri (which I think is most Khemri coaches!), how many D-Player Skellies is the right number? How do you balance the development of D-Player Skellies with that of Block/Fend Skellies, by number and in time?

I'm not much of a fouler with Khemri. Positioning is so much more important that I usually I can't afford to gang foul unless I've gotten some early cas and KO's from blocking.

So I'd say one or two DP's are enough. First two with Block and then a DP. I don't bother with Kick.

Ullis - I follow a similar philosophy for Khemri as you (see my OP), but I wanted to know how the systematic foulers do it.

It would appear that there is a similar strategy split for Khemri as for some other teams, with some coaches favouring positional play, and others prioritising the numbers game. As usual, I lean towards position, but for this team I think there is a nice balance to be found between the two.

All the best.

I think this puts it perfectly. I've always been more of a positional-favoring coach as well, though perhaps only because my d6s never seem to give me many armor breaks

[mattgslater]

I'm both. First I hold you down, then I beat you up!

[Smeborg]

I'm both. First I hold you down, then I beat you up!

Matt - I believe that makes you a positional coach. Coaches who play high ST teams predominantly for position will get plenty of knockdowns (and hence armour breaks) eventually, but the CAS will not (normally) come as fast as for coaches who play for CAS at the expense of position.

The interesting thing about Khemri IMO is that (unlike other teams) they are forced to play both ways at once.

[mattgslater]

I'm both. First I hold you down, then I beat you up!

Matt - I believe that makes you a positional coach. Coaches who play high ST teams predominantly for position will get plenty of knockdowns (and hence armour breaks) eventually, but the CAS will not (normally) come as fast as for coaches who play for CAS at the expense of position.

Yeah, that's me.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=coach ... ach=130241

The interesting thing about Khemri IMO is that (unlike other teams) they are forced to play both ways at once.

I think that's true of most non-Clawsy bash teams these days, to be sure.

[Smeborg]

A SUMMARY OF SOME OUTSTANDING KHEMRI DEVELOPMENT ISSUES
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I have my views, some quite strong, the following are still more or less open questions for me:

TOMB GUARDIANS: Nothing big, but skill order is a question, especially how high to put B-Tackle.

BLITZ-RAS: Plenty of subtle questions around role-definiition. Whether to re-inforce hunter-killer or ball-hunting skills. How important is escort role? What priority to give to secondary role as receiver? Whether running the ball is important for them. For example, when to give Guard, whether to give P-On, whether to give S-Hands, whether and when to give P-On, Pro, Fend? Is there room for Jugs and/or Grab?

THRO-RAS: More questions around role-definition, this time more basic. Is defensive role as ball-hunting Blitzer more or less important than offensive role as Runner/Thrower? Whether the weak passing skills should be re-inforced or left alone. Whether team skills should be given, (or are the players "too good" to be given such skills?). For example, could Wrestle and/or S-Ball be given at some stage, should Accurate and HMP be ignored, ditto for Leader and KoR? What about Pro?

SKELLIES: Only 1 or 2 areas of questions. Dichotomy between role as Linos and role as Foulers. How many of each to develop and in what order? Does Wrestle have a place for them?

Feel free to add or comment. Note that I feel the TGs and Skellies can each be looked at more or less in isolation, whereas the B-Ras and T-Ras should be looked at very much as a gang of four. The development path for them seems to be the key to unlocking the secrets of the team. And I won't hide that I lean towards developing them predominantly for defense.

All the best.

[Hitonagashi]

Firstly, DP's.

I have had 3, and didn't think I had enough. I'd probably go dp/wrestle/fend as my skills. However, I went DP, DP,DP, Fend,Fend.

It was a Box team, and putting 2 Fending skellies on the LOS really annoyed the clawbombers .

As many DP as u can get and foul 16 times!
Hito - I would take BT as a late skill on a blitzer Saurus, after say Block,MB,Tackle, or on a Blodge Saurus, or on a ballcarrier Saurus.
Early BT works on Bull Centaurs because they are very fast and ballcarriers.
Early BT for other players is a waste of time, especially for slow st5 guys who should be hitting and guarding.

That's been my logic. Their logic was that if you stack it as second skill, then even though individually, each move is risky, the combined effect (of 6x Break Tackle) means that the opponent has no where safe to move..so you engage the front of the cage with BT saurii, and if they leave any gaps, all 6 saurii can theoretically reposition to attack the gap. It's a theoretical threat more than a practical one. I found the theory interesting, might try it sometime.

[spubbbba]

- Playing with the Beast of Nurgle, for whom I consider B-Tackle to be a first or second normal skill pick

I’m surprised at this, I’d have thought both Guard and Stand Firm would have been preferred choices for your stymie style. With loner using BT is a risky business as the player has at best a nearly 1 in 3 chance of losing his tackle zones (assuming 2+ really stupid and 2+ dodge).

Whilst both guard and stand firm have the advantage of not requiring you to active the player and work in your opponent’s turn too.

I can certainly see the merit of BT as 3rd skill onwards for guardians as honestly they don’t have that great a selection of normal skills (guard, MB and SF are the obvious choices). After that they kind of struggle a bit unless they get stats or doubles.

[RogueThirteen]

- Playing with the Beast of Nurgle, for whom I consider B-Tackle to be a first or second normal skill pick

I’m surprised at this, I’d have thought both Guard and Stand Firm would have been preferred choices for your stymie style. With loner using BT is a risky business as the player has at best a nearly 1 in 3 chance of losing his tackle zones (assuming 2+ really stupid and 2+ dodge).

Whilst both guard and stand firm have the advantage of not requiring you to active the player and work in your opponent’s turn too.

I can certainly see the merit of BT as 3rd skill onwards for guardians as honestly they don’t have that great a selection of normal skills (guard, MB and SF are the obvious choices). After that they kind of struggle a bit unless they get stats or doubles.

I agree, I'd be very wary of Break Tackle on a Loner piece. As wonderful as it would be to have a more mobile Kroxigor with that Tail and Guard, I wouldn't risk the Loner turnover.

Now, that being said, I have made amazingly wonderful use of Ramtut III's Break Tackle to win games, so perhaps I should be more inclined to consider it.