A few thoughts on Khemri

[Iranian Spy]

How many games can you expect to wait before getting skills on non-ball carriers?

[Smeborg]

How many games can you expect to wait before getting skills on non-ball carriers?

Lots. In my experience, the TGs get CAS by virtue of the amount of blocking they do. It takes time, but they get there. Once they get to 6 SPPs, I give them M-Blow, which helps them to get SPPs at a faster rate. This is one reason for giving them M-Blow in a league of any length.

The T-Ras skill up OK as they run the ball. The B-Ras also get some TDs, although not as many, so their initial skilling is a little more haphazard. Once they get M-Blow (I give them Tackle first), they have fewer problems garnering SPPs.

I find the Skellies very frustrating to skill up, as it is rare for them to get TDs or CAS. So they are largely reliant on lucky MVPs.

I think Khemri would do better in leagues where the MVP is chosen.

Overall, Khemri remind me of Nurgle, in that they skill up slower than other teams, and it is hard to influence who gets the SPPs. Just like Nurgle, they therefore need a development plan of pinpoint accuracy, in which each new skill counts for the max. I like this kind of challenge.

Hope that helps.

[mattgslater]

How many games can you expect to wait before getting skills on non-ball carriers?

Lots. In my experience, the TGs get CAS by virtue of the amount of blocking they do. It takes time, but they get there.

This, and the random luck of MVPs. One thing I find interesting about Khemri is that while you can usually maintain a full squad, you'll be forced to randomly pick up newbies and you have no control over your progression rate, which may be rapid, nonexistent, or anything in between with no credit or blame to you. But rookie TGs do everything a skilled one does, only less effectively. No Guard? 2d into an assist. No MB? Pow, pow, pow, hope for the best.

Once they get to 6 SPPs, I give them M-Blow, which helps them to get SPPs at a faster rate. This is one reason for giving them M-Blow in a league of any length.

No, it's one of two reasons. The other is that MB roughly doubles your Cas rate, and Khemri are much easier to play when up numbers.

The T-Ras skill up OK as they run the ball. The B-Ras also get some TDs, although not as many, so their initial skilling is a little more haphazard. Once they get M-Blow (I give them Tackle first), they have fewer problems garnering SPPs.

Agree with all this. I can't blame Smeborg for taking Tackle first, but TPOMB is the plan, and only +AG should sway you from it (though you can dally for +ST on the way, but no 30k buffs until you have TPOMB).

I find the Skellies very frustrating to skill up, as it is rare for them to get TDs or CAS. So they are largely reliant on lucky MVPs.

Not my experience. TGs blocking into assists let you get skills on Skels. You can also set up to use Skels with 3-5 SPP as part of a cage: if you consistently have two such guys there, you'll TD with one sooner than you know.

I think Khemri would do better in leagues where the MVP is chosen.

Meh, TGs die, and they lack G access. This is generally true of teams with blockers, and Khemri too, but Tomb Guardians get less long-term value from improvements than BOBs or Saurii.

Overall, Khemri remind me of Nurgle, in that they skill up slower than other teams, and it is hard to influence who gets the SPPs. Just like Nurgle, they therefore need a development plan of pinpoint accuracy, in which each new skill counts for the max.

More than that, you need to always have a good team regardless of what skills you lose. So you can't really build "cogs in the wheel" or "pieces to the puzzle" like you can with many teams. All your players have to still be just as good if you plug in rookies to replace any or all of their surrounding components. Nurgle don't have it THAT hard.

[Smeborg]

I had a double first last night. I experienced my my first ever Khemri on Khemri action, and also my first BB match in which both rosters were identical. You will be pleased to know we managed to avoid pouring rain...

I was expecting that the game might be a bit dull - it was far from that. Rather entertaining, it felt like an old-style military boardgame from c. 1970 with "Zones of Control" (TZs) and attempts to envelop or break through the enemy front. I had the better block dice, and also won the kick-off, but I also managed to control and deny space better than my opponent. A lot of decision making revolved around when to put TZs on opposing players. I scored on the 5th turn and won eventually with the evergreen Khemri scoreline of 1-0. The Raging Ragheads is their name.

Starting rosters were: 3xTGs, 2xB-Ras, 1xT-Ra, 6x Sk, 3xRR for TV100 exactly. This seems to me the most efficient and best performing - if anyone has a different preferred starting roster, let us know.

[crimsonsun]

i have tried a lot of different starting teams, the best IMO is 4Tomb guardians, 2 blitz-Ras, 5 skeletons, ff1 for a total of 1000k exactly. first purchases are the Throw-ra's which if you are lucky can be match one, or worst after match day two. Starting without four Tomb Guardians i have to ask why are you playing khemri, the Only advantage they have is the Tomb guardians add to that that they are slow to level, so they need the matches more. blitz-Ra's are vital to a starting team providing your only safe blocks, and 3 re-rolls is much safer. Throw Ra's are also spp hogs once you have them more than 75% of your Touch Downs will come from them, so missing a game or two at the start of the season is not the be all and end all, it also forces you to score with skeletons or blitz ra's in those first few games, which really helps speed there progress.

The other good starting line up i have found is 4 TG, 2 Blitz Ra's. 1 Throw Ra, 4 skeletons, & 2 Re-rolls and fifty k toward reroll three/an extra skellie and ff1. This team only needs a throw ra, and the 5th skellie, but first it must get 3 re-rolls. I have found this set up can be very frustrating early on, as if your luck is slightly below average you will be throwing expletives in nuffles direction, but it does perform ok.

In fact as a test of the above two set ups i entered the former team set up into orca cola's ssc, and the latter into ukbbl's conference. the first team lost all its early games, to be fair i had to play against pro elves, followed by lizards, followed by pro elves. None of which are much fun for a starting khemri side from my experience. But after the initial games the team is going from strength to strength, and I would happily rate its chances against any other team in the division.

The ukbbl team, is doing ok.. they had more luck in there initial games, but are developing far slower, and I am in no way confident of my match ups. The team has suffered a as i had to spend the money i was saving for a re-roll replacing a blitz ra who gained a niggle falling over against skaven (the embarrassment!) but they really suffer in the later stages of a half, which is why they are developing slower, even with TG's making 3 Dice blocks the number of times I roll skull, skull, double down or a combination of those is still pretty high, but on average I will tend to be rolling around 150 block dice (not blocks) in a game so you will get bad results, due to the lack of re-roll the average turnover % from my thus far played matches is double that of the above team from 4.8% to 9.2% that difference has/does cost me games.

Level wise, Tomb Guardians get there by weight of dice, unless i get a double I always go MB first, as it is my experience that Khemri don't start to need guard until 1450+ TV, and MB really REALLY speeds up there progress. I like to have at least two guardians with stand firm, MB, and guard, and at least 1 with MB, guard and break tackle, not for blitzing but for making sure I have guard where its needed regardless of being marked. I like grab on the stand firm guardians. I will start to think about firing a Guardian if on his forth skill he has not gained block, but mine have thus far always died around that time if lacking it.

Blitz-Ra's Unless I roll a str increase, will get MB, Tackle, PO. Mighty I will take over a double always, if I roll a double second skill the I take Jump up, and pile on after, but in that case I make sure the other Blitz-Ra gets tackle as his second skill. I also have had great success taking dauntless as a forth skill on blitz-ra's it sounds stupid with 4 str 5 players, but these guys are my hunter-killers and often are times with such sucky Ag that you can only put 1 or maybe no assists on a must hit target Dauntless is invaluable at such times. Also I have a team with a tv around 2k, that in the space of six games had 2 star, and 1 super star Tomb Guardians die, leaving me with trying to level rookies, and lacking in guard, If not for dauntless on my Legendary Blitz-ra i think the team would have been totally screwed. I have always barring stat increases levelled my B-Ra's identically, and i have had a good results from it, but I am using the above teams, doing an experiment the former I am levelling one on a different plan, MB and tackle are must haves still, but afterwards guard & stand firm while the other will be the PO killer, the intention is to use them as a tag team the killer hitting, while guard stand firm blocks and protects the piling on blitz ra, normally i use TG's as protection but that is not always possible, if the target is away from the main area of player occupation.

Throw Ra's +Ag is great, +str I found was tv bloat, as the last place I wanted a throw ra was hitting, and str four is not protection enough. +Ma i consider, but not until he has block. I like to use one as a primary receiver taking block, KoR, Fend as top priorities, the other I train a ball sacker, wrestle & tackle coming first then fend for PO protection. If facing bash teams I will only field one at a time, thus denying the other coach the ability to cripple my ball handling before I have even received a kick off. +Ag is a take on either build, but obviously frustrating when it lands on the ball sacker (as happened to me) but its too good on them not to take. Dodge is my go to double on a throw-ra as a 75% dodge chance is more than acceptable in some circumstances.

Skeletons. for the line of scimmage they take DP, Wrestle, fend, doubles dodge. My reserve back up block, tackle, fend. doubles guard. I would like to try a couple of wrestle, tackle, diving tackle, pass block skeletons, but I have never been able to get all my skeletons to develop that far, and am yet to have one get past star player level before being killed.

I think initially Khemri really do struggle at low TV's, they lack the ability to reliably remove players to gain numerical superiority that all 3 of the undead teams need to degrees of extent. (IMO necro the lowest degree, with khemri the highest) They also lack the ability to make reliable blocks, having only two players with the block skill. but after 5-10 games they just keep getting better and better, I have not hit a point so far in which I have found the TV is a problem, but I have not managed to go past 2400 thus far. Once you have the core skills, losing players is not that devastating, as the remaining players help the newbies on there way. The other undead teams are really hit hard by the lose of there positional players but the lose of one or two players is fine with Khemri, and its for this reason that I have found them very competitive and high TV's, in MM games on Cyanide at TV2000+ I have had more Chaos, Nurgle and Orc players DC at half time to save there squad than any other type of team. They will struggle to out bash us over the long haul, initially they will cause more damage, but with regenerate on all our players unless you have been royally nuffled the damage we cause will start to grind them down. To the point where by the second half a typical cyanide tv2000 chaos team of 11 players 6-8 of which a legendary while the remaining are either rookies, or mercenaries will be down to around six players at which point the COWARDS will 90% of the time rage quit, and if they dont (more power to them) the game is yours for the taking as they cant deal with us. I will also say verses those types of chaos team, dont go crazy targeting there legendary/super star players its easier to remove the unskilled ones, thus gaining a player count advantage, once done then you can go for the throat and there is not much they can do about it. (Hence the large number of quitters you face) I know it sounds ruthless but If people have designed a team to kill, like the cookie cutter chaos teams they should be willing to accept there own players mortality, and if not they need to have a serious rethink in my opinion. (I will note that I am one of those crazy players who shouts at players that dont do a juicy foul on turn 16, or who laughs when anyone dies regardless of who's team its on, I like CARNAGE, to such an extent it has cost me victories, but I will take fun over winning any day!)

Finally, because i am waffling somewhat now, I think the if you look at individual players on a Khemri team they really suck, but when used together they are very capable and extremely good at defending. This will never be a team in which you can win the game with 1 legendary player without mutual support they are really screwed, but when working as a coherent unit they can dismantle and defeat any team out there. I think the worst aspect of the team overall is that you can lose and will sometimes have the game placed out of reach because of a failed pick up (not the end of the world if you cover the ball, which is the first thing you should do always!) and a unlucky bounce or two, as they simply do not have the ag/ma to recover, nor are they able score enough touch downs to counter. Losing games like this is frustrating to begin with, but after a while it I found that I am no longer bothered by it at all and even when faced with the worst nuffling's i just think its funny. (could be british sense of humour though)

Anyway thats my take on the team, thanks for reading and Discuss!

[Chris]

*Epic post*
Anyway thats my take on the team, thanks for reading and Discuss!

*Epic response*
Yeah, fair enough.

[burgun824]

I think we need to change the name of this thread to "A LOT of thoughts on Khemri."

I'm pretty sure we passed a few a couple of pages ago.

[MKL]

I think we need to change the name of this thread to "A LOT of thoughts on Khemri."

I'm pretty sure we passed a few a couple of pages ago.

Keep coming guys, it's a very interesting read!

I hope someday someone start a similar "a few thoughts on Necros" thread:
we are in dire need of scientific literature

[Smeborg]

Starting without four Tomb Guardians i have to ask why are you playing khemri, the Only advantage they have is the Tomb guardians...

Thanks, crimsonsun, for a lovely long post.

The answer to your above question is quite simple, I believe. You and I play in different environments. I play in tabletop leagues of short to medium length where every result counts from the first game. Also, I can expect to face any of the 24 races in approximately equal proportions.

In these environments, trial and error has shown my preferred starting roster (3xTG, 2xB-Ra, 1xT-Ra, 6x Sk, 3xRR) to get better results in the first 3 games or so than when I have started with 4 TGs. The compensating advantages are all present (12 players, 2xBlock, S-Hands from the start, 3 Re-rolls, minimum cost to get to the full roster). Were I to play in a bash-heavy environment, or in a league where building for the long haul (TV200+) was all-important, then I might favour starting with 4 TGs (subject to my usual trial and error, of course).

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

crimsonsun - some further thoughts on player development strategy, following a re-read of your long post. Some of these may be due to obvious differences in environment, others perhaps due to genuine differences in thinking.

THRO-RAS: I favour Block, Tackle on both of them (then Fend), and play both on defense (even if both are put in the dugout, there is a 3/4 chance that at least one will come straight back). When, last season, I got +ST and Dodge on a Thro-Ra, it made him quite handy for blitzing on defense (Block, +1ST, Dodge, Tackle). Had this player gone on to further skill advances, there was the tantalising prospect of a second doubles (Break Tackle).

BLITZ-RAS: I give Tackle before M-Blow (probably I face more Dodge players than you). I now lean towards Guard and then Fend after that (yet to be tested). I like all Khemri players to stay standing when possible, thus I am happy without P-On (I accept that this thinking may be rather alien in your environment). I prefer to remain standing next to the spilled ball. I like the idea of Fend on all four MA6 players, I think it might well add an extra dimension with the implied mobility on both O and D. Plus protection, of course.

SKELLIES: Again, I plan to build for defense first, thus I would start with Block on the first 3 Skellies, to be followed by Fend (I find that Skellies without Block are major points of weakness, especially on defense). I prefer Block to Wrestle, as I like all my players to remain standing, especially anywhere near the ball. For slow, low AG players like Skellies, Wrestle will often cause what chess players might call a "loss of tempo". I am happy to foul without D-Player when the opportunity presents - the luxury of D-Player Skellies can wait.

These are just ideas - I have not tested all of them fully in practice, but I like what I have seen so far.

[crimsonsun]

Thanks for your feedback always interested, I have not played table top for a couple of years now but thats how I got into the game going back best part of two decades still miss the undead mummies etc, and yes/no my ways of looking at things have changed. I would not say I play in overly bash Heavy unless you count MM, which I do not consider a good environment for looking at player progression at all as such a vast number of teams do the min/max TV, which works for that style of play but when compared to an organised league with structured weekly matches, such teams will really suffer.

The on line leagues OCC, SSC, BBATTL and UKBBL I think just about all the teams currently available online are represented, obviously with chaos edition on the virtual horizon I will get to mess with chaos dwarfs again (One of my many TT teams) and i am really looking forward to underworld, since they came along after my local group semi disbanded (work, marriage, moving to other countries etc) but they look like a lot of fun.

I can totally understand your reasons for block on throw-ra's as wrestle is useless for carrying the ball, but for a tackling last line of defence, wrestle wins over block as the ball will come loose. As for Str4, I think u get the same ability by taking dauntless on him for 30k less, not so good when getting hit, but when a throw-ra gets hit with AV7 and no thick skull I do not expect him to get back up for a turn or two.

Regarding tackle on Blitz Ra's its perfectly valid as a choice, and IMO no way inferior to Mighty Blow. In the leagues I face large amounts of elves, skaven, stunties and amazons so I am not happy if my team does not have at least three tackle players, I personally prefer Mighty Blow first for a few reasons, firstly causing damage faster, not only vastly increases khemri teams win% via numerical advantage but also the players spp development. In my SSC team, my blitz ra gained MB last week (we play one game a week) this week ok it was against goblins, but he got 4 casualties and a TD meaning he now has tackle after just 1 game. would tackle have been good against stunties, undoubtedly but if I really need to bring something down i can hit it three die with a TG, 50% of a POW, 50% chance of both down, the latter is a viable option if you have prepared for the need. But the main reason I take MB first is purely personal, I like carnage in blood bowl and I really mean that, my players your players I don't care as long as its mayhem, my love of carnage not only affects my skill choices, but also makes me a far worse coach than I actually am, but I don't really care in regards to that because I gain more pleasure the way I play, as I don't take it seriously. I am not saying i don't play to win, of course I do, but having fun ranks a lot higher, and you learn more from a hard fought loose than you do a walk over victory.

I digress (again lol) I can see the tactical advantage of tackle in a short league 100% because your really not looking past the first 2 skills maybe 3 and that is it. In comparison the OCC has its feeder stage the scc, then 5 divisions divided into 4 groups of ten teams, promtion going to the 8-12 top ranked, religation to the 8-12 bottom after the five tiers, the top 8 teams go into division 1, with the previous seasons champion and runner up. there are a vast number of teams with 2500k+ team ratings up at the top end so long term player development is vital, but equally so is that the whole team is levelling, as relying on a couple of stars is asking for someone or more likely a heat seeking rock to kill them, and as such while in the lower to mid tiers winning every game is not as important as gaining a good selection of skills, once you have a solid team then go for the wins, as too many promotions to quickly can be deadly. (I have a undead team, went in tier six skipping the feeder, won the division getting me a double promtion to tier four last season, my tv was around 1500 after nine games, my group had tv2000 dwarfs, khemri, necro, and orcs and was also pure bash teams except 1 team of goblins which is not normal at all, this season which finishes this week, I do not play all out to win but to gain spp as I am playing vs teams that have player twice or three times as many games as me, which inducements kinda over 300k ish are just not great at compensating against) What I am trying to say is long term strategy in player development is more important to me than winning early games.

Saying that, in BBATTL ( inter-league tournaments) winning is essential, they are knock out competitions with normally a 3-10 game group stage, followed by knock out play off's, every win is vital if you want a chance at the playoff's (you can use team of restricted TV for the Minor competitions, and unlimited for the Majors but teams must have only played games in the affiliated leagues, which if u leave you cannot rejoin as well as can have competed in previous BBATTL tournaments) and therefore if i lose a couple of key skills in a team, its far more important for me to cover that than think long term.

My god im rambling today, but I am trying to say I play in a range of different enviroments, some I think fairly similar to what your used to as well as for extremely long term play, but when I I offer my suggestions on skill path/choice its always with league play in mind, because I think that is the ultimate challenge for a team, you never know who you will play next season, so you need to prepare for everything, money & spiralling expenses are vitally important (undead teams have it a lot easier here) having specialist players is a must. You need a killer because there are some players that if you don't neutralise them will making winning impossible, you need a tackler, players for marking, a player for crowd surfing, standfirm/sidestep players for pitch control or you will come very unstuck. Fouling players, that's a preference depending on team choice, some teams and in my opinion that's all undead teams have players that it does not matter if they get sent off, a dirty player foul, with assists to bring av to 5 (5 is really the magic number here) have a greater chance of removing a player from the pitch than not, making the risk worth while if you have a decent bench as well as the value of who your stepping on. Fouling ghouls/throw-ra's is a very good plan as it totally neutralises the ball handling ability of a team, greatly increasing your odds.

Enough rambling.. reason i have one wrestle throw-ra is because I feel that a MA6 wrestle players is a good idea in nearly all teams, add to that throw-ra will be kept out of reach of the other team, thus no dodging required, and its the only player we have that can fill this roll without losing something else we will need. Block is better, no doubt but for me its about making sure I have all the types of player I need. I think KoR is vital on throw-ra's pref both, otherwise skaven and elves can score against us far far to easily with kick.

only thing I will add on Blitz-ra's regarding PO, use it turn 8/16 if he is not needed to mark, use it if u get though armour without MB but only when you are protected on the ground and the player is causing u problems. PO and guard are crap together, same as guard and wrestle. But we have TG's for guard, and if lucky maybe a skeleton or two. with so many str5 players we are very hard to take out if positioned correctly, as teams just do not have the strength. I think a better combination is one killer, and one blitz-ra for punching holes. Mighty blow, frenzy, jugg, dauntless, standfirm/fend then guard, he will provide a threat to the other teams hunting the flanks, or is the driving force of our offence, making a path though bash teams, or for wrecking column defence which is a nightmare for khemri to deal with.

I like wrestle, fend, DP skeletons because I stick them on things i dont want hitting my team, CW&/POMB's big guys, black orcs, chaos warriors, basically anything that has high str & low agility, I am not using them for counter assists, or support for the guardians thus wrestle is better than block as it reduces the number of hits they are likely to take. for skeletons to support TG's block, tackle, and guard or Diving tackle on doubles, no doubles kick not essential for khemri but can still win you matches. It has been my experience that Khemri need up right skeletons at low tv's but once you have a core of Guardians with MB, guard a couple of blocks and standfirm's they do not need it, freeing the skeletons for other roles (I like fouling & Marking) also skeletons are not cut out to be in the thick of the scrums, they wont last long at all, meaning you will lose players and therefore numerical advantage, TG's are our players for controlling the pitch in my mind, and wrestle skeletons being hit by bash, both going down will harm them far more than u, thats a guard player laying on the floor, not obstructing our movement and not providing the many assists needed to deal with 4 strength 5 players (think dwarfs & orcs) On the other hand in both undead and necro teams, all my zombies get block, players standing is more useful, ghouls are my wrestle outlet (obviously not the ball carriers)

Break Tackle, I have never found that u need it that much, but one or two players is a good idea. As i said in my previous post a non block TG who has guard and MB is where I like my BT, because I am not that bothered about using them to hit, the lack of block being the main issue, it allows you to shift a very hard to get rid of guard player, I might only use it once a match but that one move can make a huge difference. I have never, ever found I need break tackle on a Blitz-ra and I would take dodge on a throw-ra on doubles over BT any day of the week for survival purposes. Jump up is good in Blitz-ra's PO or not, 3+ for double movement or a free block when your knocked over is great.

Fend... Great skill, only player i would not take it on in the team is a TG because they have so many better skills to get on doubles. Blitz-Ra's and throw-Ra's are are doing players, so protecting them is vital. Fend making POMB useless unless they have jugg, very rare, as well as keeping them free from marking on your turn. My Legendary blitz-ra is POMB Dauntless, frenzy, tackle, fend. Its great because he is normally the main target for other killers, fend ruins there day, and on my turn I do as they planned to do to me!

Couple of questions: Tackle is more important to u at early tv because of dodge, but only, elf catchers, gutter runners, stunties, and amazons have it at low tv, so i have never found that I start needing it until 1500ish TV when all elves are Bodge Sidestep, amazon's yeah if u play them alot I can understand it. but otherwise I dont see the rush, stunties and skaven not really, block works just as well, and with MB when u hit them they dont get back up, neutralising the problem for the whole match so can you explain what makes it so important?

Verses Elves especially, most of all WARDANCERS, i think fouling is are best defence. They lack the bench to cope with the casualties. Yes elves are an effective team with 5 players even when on the ball, but if you kick, which you should, they score in three turns ish, 5-7 elves will not have a chance to get the ball off 11 unless your royally nuffled (in which case it could be snotlings) 2-1 grind. Also Fouling whoever is there kicker, same on skaven is essential, if it cost me two skeletons to BH 1 elf kicker its worth it, because that kicker is a TD machine, placing the Ball in a position we will struggle to protect it and not be able to fully shield against failed pick ups, is match breaking. My pet hate is 1-2 squares from the half way line 1-4 squares from the side of the pitch, by putting TZ's between us and the landing area we are almost defenceless against this, the only way to be sure IMO is to hunt these players down. (Kickers are far higher priority targets that dodges IMO, who are annoying but even if not brought down can be pushed out the way with little difficulty. How do you deal with this?

Anyway Enough from me!!

[SunDevil]

Thanks to crimsonsun and Smeborg for such a thrilling discussion of Khemri - my favorite non-stunty team!

My Season 4 200TV Khemri survived a league match with 275TV Chaos today to win 2-1 in OT by playing the combo control/bash style discussed earlier in this thread. While I feel I have made some mistakes in developing my crew, these have only strengthened my resolve to build in a certain way.

Tomb Guardians - First MiB then Guard on all, then BT on 2 and StF on 2. As mentioned before, the BT isn't so much for blitzing as to keep your ST5 Guard mobile and prevent them from getting tied down by Zombies, etc. I took Grab as a third skill on one of my TGs and have regretted it ever since. Usually, all 4 of my TG have their own hits to make and it has not been helpful to Grab a victim in a different direction than a normal pushback would have provided. I find myself wishing I could Dodge him out for a 2+ to reposition almost every game.

Blitz-Ras - MiB, Guard, Tackle, PO, Dauntless - I have both of my Blitz-Ras on this track though the second one does not have Dauntless yet. As mentioned before, the Dauntless backs up all your Guard so well in that it makes your biggest asset - your natural ST advantage - even tougher. Like Elves making their agility even more dangerous with Dodge, Side Step, etc. Take your team's core advantage and make it even better! The number of times the Blitz-Ra has needed to crack a BOB, Saurus, Chaos Warrior, Vampire, etc with just one assist has been tremendous. Roll that 2+ and go to work! I like Guard over Tackle to, again, reinforce that ST advantage. If I position badly and a Blodger gets away from me, then I'll take my chances with 3DBs or needing the POW. I have also passed up doubles to keep the Blitz-Ras on their killer tracks. Smeborg once used the analogy of 'sharks and reefs' when referring to Nurgle Warriors and Pestigors and I think it applies here as well - TGs are the reefs and Blitz-Ras are the sharks. I used to think I would never give up space with Pile On (I REFUSE to call it Piling On!) but now I love it as it has ramped up the casualties even more than MiB did. I never PO a KO and usually only PO if I break armor without MiB but it is always great to have the option. If you need the position and Guard more, then don't PO!

Thro-Ras - I like these guys to concentrate on the ball. I had one guy with Block, KOR, Tackle, Fend but cut him because he wasn't special. His replacement went Block, Leader, +AG(!) and Fend. My other went Block, KOR, and...wait for it...DUMP OFF! I never expect it to work as a pass (though it sometimes does!) but it helps me control the fumble when my opponent inevitably cracks a hole in my screen or, more likely, the Thro-Ras outrun the TG/Skelly escort. I admit, having the other Thro-Ra get 3AG helped me pick DU but I had planned on it anyway, again, for fumble control. I find two Tackle is enough on the team but might take Tackle on my 3AG Thro-Ra at 76spps (he is 4 away) unless he rolls doubles for Dodge.

Skellies - I like 6 on the team for a roster of 14. Two DPs, one Kick, all Block (hopefully). I like the idea of Wrestle/DP but, like Smeborg, cannot give up the real estate. At least with PO, I increase my chances of removing an opponent. Using Wrestle does not do that for me because opponents usually follow that Wrestled teammate so much that I cannot get a good foul next turn. And his foul targets (high priority opponents) are not wasting time hitting a Wrestle Skelly. I have enjoyed Kick as a way to push bash teams back a bit. Coffin corner the kick and three guys run back there for it - now I can play 11 vs. 8 up front and that helps negate their first turn hitting. Against dash teams, it has only been so-so.

On defense I have learned NOT to push over the midpitch line unless I can get TZs on the ball or sack the carrier. Otherwise, stay on your side and play the player advantage to your, well, advantage.

Offense? The loose screen is your best friend as the team is too slow and clumsy to maintain a tight cage. Also, Wizards will rip you up if you form too tightly.

Fouling is a crucial part of the gameplan, both on offense and defense. High priority targets (Claw players, Blodgers, AG-boosted gits, etc) are great but I'll even foul annoying linemen if the opportunity presents itself. Look to only need 6s (after assists) and try to save your Dirty Player for the injury!

Gotta rematch against some Humans for our division title in our league Week 10 - they beat me week one when I 1-reroll-1ed in the endzone on turn 8 of 2nd half - and will be looking for revenge! Hoping for the best of both worlds as mattgslater (I think!) said it best - "Hold 'em down, then beat 'em up!"

Khemri for life...and after!

[crimsonsun]

I really like the shark and Reef Metaphor, that is exactly how I see it. Dump off will be the next skill on my super star throw-ra actually, I have been thinking about it alot.. I know its not great but they can take NoS as a normal choice so then it becomes 4+ with a re-roll now thats 75% odds, also before he died was thinking about dropping it a wrestle throw-ra, thus wrestle is no longer a negative on a ball carrier as he off loads the ball anyway, with wrestle, dodge fend, dump off, NoS, and tackle hes suddenly really multi purpose, and adds two new options for the team. I have a lot of fun with Khemri, still miss the old mummies they were monsters! but the extra move is useful. Fouling for the win always... saying that the last six fouls I have done 3 with undead 3 with khemri have all been straight send off rolling 1,1 or 2,2 not so hot at all, six fouls two matches, saying that I have just been nuffled badly twice in a row, legendary blitz-ra hits unskilled beast double skulls, re-roll double skull, BH regenerate roll 1... good first block of my last game that was!!

Looking forward to the continuing discussion, a lot of my friends think of Khemri as a total no brainier team, but I do not think they have the slightest idea how far ahead and careful you need to be with them. A bad fumble and that's a lost match.

Crimsosun

[Smeborg]

crimsonsun - thanks for another great ramble - all good stuff. I like your ideas, and do not doubt they are valid in practice. I answer your specific question below - note that it spreads quickly into more general aspects of playstyle and strategy.

Couple of questions: Tackle is more important to u at early tv because of dodge, but only, elf catchers, gutter runners, stunties, and amazons have it at low tv, so i have never found that I start needing it until 1500ish TV when all elves are Bodge Sidestep, amazon's yeah if u play them alot I can understand it. but otherwise I dont see the rush, stunties and skaven not really, block works just as well, and with MB when u hit them they dont get back up, neutralising the problem for the whole match so can you explain what makes it so important?

My first proper league and tournament team was Chaos Dwarfs (the most Tackly team), for long my favourite; I have played all teams since, but the most satisfying to learn (and also the most difficult) was Nurgle (the team with the heaviest tackle zone in the game). Maybe it is this background which leads me to think in terms of heavy tackle zones (for example ST5+Guard on the TGs, or Block+Tackle[+Guard] on the B-Ras).

I also like to build teams to work against all opponents.

I think Khemri do OK against bash teams, in general the poor darlings can't handle all that ST5 when they are used to being the bullies. The problems tend to come more from the AG teams, especially when Khemri drop the ball or get turned over. In these situations, I always find I would give a kingdom for one more tackle zone or Tackle player on or near the ball. So I plan to develop the team with this in mind: 4 early Tackle, and 6 early Guard (the latter delayed only for the lovely 6xM-Blow). I will also consider Block+Tackle on the Skellies, but this is a question of how killy the environment is - if it is killy, Fend may be preferable to Tackle.

11 of the 24 teams start with Dodge, at least 4 more will take Dodge as a first skill on some players, others will take it as a doubles skill. Like you I like at least 3 Tackle players on a team, but I prefer to have more.

Because of my love of heavy TZs on the slow and clumsy teams, I am prepared to forgo Wrestle on the clumsiest (I am normally a great fan of Wrestle) and P-On [Chance, I hope you like my abbreviation for your favourite skill]. I think with up to 6xM-Blow, you will do enough damage, and I like Guard on the Tackle+M-Blow players. It occurs to me that M-Blow might be a valid doubles choice on the T-Ras the way I conceive of and play them. [Still Guard as doubles on the Skellies, of course.] When I sack the ball carrier, I find it really important for the sacking player to stay standing next to the ball (similar to defensive turnovers). This is especially important against the AG teams.

As a coach, I generally dislike lone specialist players, preferring as much generalisation as possible. This suits the way I play and look at the board. With specialists, I always find the specialist is in the wrong position for the opening I have just seen, or the move I have just made. I don't like to limit my play to the constraints implied by the specialist and his position on the pitch (if he is still on it!). Thus I like to develop every player of the same type along the same lines (there are exceptions, for example, on the Nurgle team, I build 1 Pestigor as a Runner, 3 as Blitzers). For Khemri, this means I conceive of the Blitz-Ras and Thro-Ras as 2 pairs, or as I am now realising, more as 4 of a kind.

Hope that helps explain my thinking a bit. I find Khemri a really interesting challenge. They remind me (in general terms) a lot of Nurgle, in that they are very unforgiving - every move and action needs to be spot on. But they are rewarding when you get it right. The same applies to development. And I agree that Khemri development is probably a lot richer than most coaches realise. Well done, Chance, for your lovely contribution, too.

[crimsonsun]

From reading your last post I have noticed a difference in our way of thinking as coaches which i think is really interesting. From the way you describe heavy tackle zones, and troubles with agility players it occurred to me that your skill choices are ones that will make the other coaches life more difficult and therefore more likely to fail on his rolls, while my choices are for skills that will actively reduce my chances of failing what I wish to accomplish in a given turn. They are obviously in no way mutually exclusive, but its almost looking at team development in complete reverse if that kind of makes sense and shows we have a very different mindset. I do not like any situation in which I need to opposing coach to fail his rolls because it has never come though for me in any game of importance, and I concentrate 75% of my development on increasing the effectiveness of my turn, the glaring example of here is how we see tackle (Obviously this is an assumption based on your previous posts) I take the skill primarily for what it accomplishes in increasing blocking/blitzing effectiveness, the fact that it neutralises dodge skill for purpose of dodging is a nice bonus but a very much secondary part of the skill for me. From what i envisage you look at this in reverse hence why you like a lot more players with tackle than i feel is needed. I just find it interesting, I know that my attitude comes from my days of TT, and incredibly lucky players skipping past me needing 6+ followed by 4+4+ with no re-rolls and doing it every time as such if I cannot directly/actively influence something on the pitch I will always assume the worst. I am pretty sure that yours is the better way of thinking, even if every now and then you get stung by Loki himself 9/10 the action will fail or not even be attempted because those skills are in place, I am a very reactive player who likes to counter rather than play the offensive, its why I like khemri so much as I see them as a very defence orientated team. Anyway just an observation, I thought was interesting.

Player Pairs, I have been pairing positional players for so many years I have no idea where it started, but each positional has a job, and two players that do the same thing are better than one and cover twice the ground it and it works very well. If you can have four of a positional, i still pair them off, its almost imprinted into my brain. It is only recently I have been toying with the idea positional players with different skill sets that work in-conjunction directly as pairs, but its very much in the learning/testing phase, I hypothesise that it will reap bigger reward with bigger risk/redundancy due to player lose/injury. I think it is appealing to me as it provides more possible options in team strategy and will hopefully allow me to create teams that are unique/unexpected but are equally as effective overall as the generally assumed 'optimum' build. I am sure I will discover far more failures than success but I am really not someone who obsesses about win/lose ratio if it restricts fun/creativity and i do find that once you find an 'optimum' build it is often a case of build, win, rinse and repeat at after nearly two decades of play will become tedious and also that i personally will start to take the game too seriously, which in very dangerous because we are all humble in comparison to lord nuffle!

Wow I did not waffle on this time!! Thanks Crimsonsun