A few thoughts on Khemri

[Smeborg]

crimsonsun - your view of our difference in mindset probably holds more than a grain of truth. Bear in mind that I come to Khemri after s few years of coaching Nurgle. It was a revelation for me when I realised that Nurgle do better in their opponent's turn than during their own. So I guess I think of Khemri as Nurgle without mutations - profoundly similar, but with a profound difference too. This naturally informs both my playstyle and team development. I also notice that typically I pay more attention to control (and denial) of space (and movement) than other coaches do, regardless of the team that I am playing with. And I do so across the whole board. No doubt that brings corresponding weaknesses in my style, but that's the glory of BB.

Like you I love the carnage and related mayhem in BB (I wonder who would bother to play the game without it, it would be very dull indeed), but I won't hide that I put higher priority on playing the ball. Thus (for example) while P-On is undoubtedly one of the great skills on the right player (and the right team), I think there are teams for whom the case for P-On is strong, but not automatic.

It occurs to me that a good build for the Thro-Ras (the way I play them at least) might be: Block, Tackle, Fend, Wrestle (with perhaps Dauntless and/or S-Ball to follow).

Let me know why you think Kick-off Return is so important to Khemri - I have played very successfully (somewhat to my surprise) without it. I love KoR on the right player/team, for example on a Pestigor Runner (combining with S-Hands and X-Arms) or on an Underworld Thrower (ditto). But it seems far less valuable on players who struggle to pick the ball up in the first place. Better, I reasoned (with some trepidation), to protect the ball in the square where it is being picked up. This worked out well in practice.

I also managed without Leader in last year's league. My reasoning was that the Thro-Ras are too good and too important to waste a precious skill on Leader. I was a bit nervous of this strategy, but again, it seems to have worked out well in practice. Let me know if you have any views.

At any rate, how to play and develop the Thro-Ras does seem to be one of the biggest point of difference between Khemri coaches.

[Hitonagashi]

I do not like any situation in which I need to opposing coach to fail his rolls because it has never come though for me in any game of importance

I'd just like to say, this is exactly how I feel too. I coached junior chess players for a while, and this was something I was always striving to eradicate from their game. New chess players have a habit of making these plans that assume their opponent is an idiot and will play the moves that expose themselves...I prefer to plan assuming my opponent is at least the same standard as me.

[Smeborg]

I do not like any situation in which I need to opposing coach to fail his rolls because it has never come though for me in any game of importance

I'd just like to say, this is exactly how I feel too. I coached junior chess players for a while, and this was something I was always striving to eradicate from their game. New chess players have a habit of making these plans that assume their opponent is an idiot and will play the moves that expose themselves...I prefer to plan assuming my opponent is at least the same standard as me.

I prefer to go further than that - to assume my opponent is better than me, even if I know he probably is not. But I also like to make life more difficult for my opponent during his turn (regardless of his ability). [Edit: Over the course of a game, that constitutes a cumulative advantage of some magnitude.]

All the best.

[Edit: Hitogonashi, I think there are quite a few good analogies between BB and chess. And incidentally, the best preparation for BB (outside of the game) for me was playing in chess tournaments.]

[Shteve0]

Interesting. To borrow language from another hobby, it seems you guys are isolating aggro and control builds for your players. i'd suggest that elements of these build types are also fairly universal - for instance, in skilling up a 4 set of blitzers, I'd generally look to 2-3 'control' or 'passive' build blitzers (block/blodge, guard, SF, tackle) and 1-2 'aggro' or 'active' build (block, mb, p-on, frenzy).

Also, in football (aka soccer) terms, I think it's an interesting distinction that the system and strategy of a team are not inextricably linked. In practice, what looks like an outwardly defensive setup can in fact result in some of the most consistent attacking phases, eg Italy's 5-2-2-1 from the Euros, or vice versa, eg Barcelona's high line and intense pressing game of the Guardiola era. In the latter example, what's particularly remarkable about this Barca is their ability to force the return of possession (turnovers?) through the application of constant, early pressure in critical zones high up the pitch, then cycling the possession back out to less exposed areas where they hold man advantage - In effect, that they defend with forwards and look to attack through their defence.

I bring this up as I'd suggest that a complete team of aggro-build players are wont to a reactive play style that looks to its individuals to force turnovers, or to remove targetted opponents; whereas a roster of control-build players would look to apply constant pressure through board position. Neither strategy is more aggressive than the other per se. In fact, I think determining a build that accomodates the optimal mix of A and P players, both for your playstyle and your 'local' metagame, is the key.

Tackle suits both A and P build B-Ras, so I can see the value in picking it up early. [Guard/SF] or [P-On/MB] strikes me as the split here, and since skill access on the TGs encourages passive builds (no natural block, frenzy or tackle), I'd be inclined to go with the aggro B-Ra build, on theory alone.

Finally, the debate about multiple versions of similarly built players vs 11-16 very different builds is particularly interesting. Frankly, I don't consider myself nearly experienced enough to weigh into this one, so I'm just really keen to hear the opposing arguments from coaches who've played with and against the whole gamut.

[/theorybowl]

Cheers

S

[Smeborg]

Thanks, Shteve0, good post. i too think there are interesting parallels between many sports and BB. And to pursue your thinking in reverse direction, there are quite strong similarities in the way I play BB and the way I play team sports.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

DOUBLES STRATEGIES FOR KHEMRI
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OK, another question for y'all. I find Khemri doubles strategy a bit bi-polar, in that there are obvious (and perhaps rather dull) ideas that I typically follow, and other possibly more interesting paths which I have not yet dared to take. Here are my ideas:

TOMB GUARDIANS: Block, Tackle. Alternative: Block, Dodge, (suggesting B-Tackle as normal skill). Wacky: Block, S-Step (if no S-Firm).

BLITZ-RAS: Dodge (suggesting B-Tackle as normal skill), Sidestep.

THRO-RAS: Dodge, Sidestep. Alternative: Dodge, B-Tackle. Wacky: M-Blow.

D-P SKELLIES: S-Git, Dodge. Alternative: S-Git, S-Feet.

BLOCK SKELLIES: Guard, Dodge, S-Step (not that that will happen).

As with some other teams, skill paths and roles can become a bit "interesting" once both stat increases and doubles come. And as with other clumsy teams, leaving out Dodge altogether on doubles has to be considered (a scary prospect, no doubt, for Khemri).

STAT INCREASE QUESTION
--------------------------------------------
Would you take +1 AG on a Skelly? I don't think I've ever had to make the decision.

Let me know your thoughts.

[mattgslater]

Doubles for me:

TGs: Block, then ignore further doubles or take Frenzy.
BRs: Ignore until #4 (after T-POMB), then Jump Up at #4 or Side Step (after Guard or Frenzy) at #5. Ignore second doubles unless at #6, then get both JU and SS. +ST makes SS a possibility, too.
TRs: Guard, then Side Step; ignore further doubles.
Skels: Guard then, Side Step; ignore further doubles. Even on DPs: SG isn't a good enough skill to merit taking. I could see it as a second double on a DP/G player, but not for me.

Doubles have to be more than useful. They have to be game-changing. Block qualifies. Guard qualifies. Side Step qualifies if you have Guard. Dodge qualifies if you have several other Dodge guys.

[Hitonagashi]

I once went for block/diving tackle on a mummy (second double).

No doubt there were far better choices, but it was surprisingly good at tying up people when stuck next to another mummy. Lots of bashing!

[Smeborg]

Another idea for stat increases: I take +AV on Tomb Guardians as a matter of course (on a 6+4). I did so as a result of my experience with Rotters (+AV is outstanding on them, to counter the effects of Decay). I was nervous when I first tried this last season, but in practice it prevented an armour break for the lucky TG about once every 2 games - surprisingly often. Keeping them on the pitch is quite desirable.

I would also take +AV on a Skelly on a 6+4, but I don't seem to recall this ever happening (my Skellies seem always to be skill retards).

[SunDevil]

I prefer not to take Dodge ever on the Khemri. You won't get enough of it to matter and the one or two you have will just be huge Tackle magnets.

Other doubles - Block on the TGs, Guard on the Skellies. Those are the two you hope for. I like Frenzy on a Block TG as a second double but not sure I would bloat the team with more doubles on a Guard Skelly when he can just take Block. A Block/Guard Skelly is pretty much perfect...for as long as he lives.

Blitz-Ras - I would probably not mess with JU on Blitz-Ras unless it was skill 6 as it's a 3+ to JU, not a 2+ like with most Blitzers. MiB, Guard, PO, Tackle are all no-brainers and I like Dauntless as skill #5. I've only had one get there but it has been a boon.

I like KoR as it almost always gets a TZ on the ball before your turn starts. (Blitz insurance) Getting the shot at a 5+ to catch is just icing on the cake.

Again, I prefer to reinforce the Khemri's natural ST advantage with lots of MiB and Guard, nothing earth shattering, and feel that most doubles are just bloat. Block on TGs and Guard on Skellies are the best doubles you can hope for, in my opinion.

I also do not take AG boosts unless its a Thro-Ra, although I can understand the argument to do it on a Skelly because he can then go Block, Sure Hands and be a streamlined Thro-Ra - as in one without Pass access. I would not take +AG on a Blitz-Ra as it it interferes with what I feel is his natural skill progression, already very good without doubles or stat boosts. +ST is a no-brainer to take of course and would then make Frenzy a tempting next choice.

I also skip the +AV boosts. Yes, Decay sucks but +AV will not help against their main problem - Claw - and it will just bloat your TV when that TG could have had MiB or Guard, both of which are VITAL while +AV is a bit too theorybowl for me.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, that brings up the question of stats.

For me:
Skels I don't bother with +AV/MA, but I take +AG or +ST. +ST followed with Block and Fend, +AG followed with Block and Pro. Either player may make it to 31 SPP, or die young.

TRs take +MA starting at skill #2 (after Block), +AG or +ST at any opportunity. Doesn't change their track.

BRs take +AG (redirecting their track) or +ST at skill #1, +MA at #3 or later (after MB-T).

TGs take +ST if and only if they already have Block. This prioritizes Break Tackle; kind of like a Block Deathroller with no Secret Weapon. ST5/BT is not the same. ST6/Block/BT = 8/9 to dodge into an X-cage and 2d even if both fronts have Guard!

[Smeborg]

I realise I left out the obvious doubles choices for Thro-Ras, which is S-Feet, Sprint. This implies KoR of course. For the Runner Pestigor on the Nurgle team, KoR+S-Feet+MA ((if you can get the latter) is golden. S-Feet, Sprint would have to be worth considering for the Bitz-Ras too.

SunDevil - I thought +1AV might be a bit "theorybowl" befoe I took it, but it won me games in practice.

I think I play the Blitz-Ras a bit differently to other coaches. In the first place I incline to Guard rather than P-On (I am open-minded as to which is better, but I think it is an either/or choice). More importantly, I think they have an important secondary role as Receivers (they are much better than Skellies in this regard), thus I would take +1AG on them even if I already had a +1AG on a Thro-Ra. By the same token, S-Feet+Sprint on doubles is worth considering for them.

Lastly, I agree with SunDevil that leaving out Dodge altogether may be a good option. I follow this philosophy on the Nurgle team, on the basis that a small number of Dodge players are easy to take out with a few Tackle players. Of course if you get +AG, or ST4+B-Tackle, then Dodge becomes rather attractive.

All the best.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I realise I left out the obvious doubles choices for Thro-Ras, which is S-Feet, Sprint. This implies KoR of course. For the Runner Pestigor on the Nurgle team, KoR+S-Feet+MA ((if you can get the latter) is golden. S-Feet, Sprint would have to be worth considering for the Bitz-Ras too.

LOL bad kids.

[Juriel]

I wouldn't pick +AG on a Skelly. It just doubles their cost, and you do NOT want to have a MA5 player carrying your ball. I tried to make it work, and it's just too slow, it kills your offensive progress - it's a big leap in quality of life to go from MA5 to MA6, and from MA6 to MA7. On a Blitz-Ra I might consider +AG as a late pick, but first you really need them to be TacklePOMBing around the pitch.

[Smeborg]

I wouldn't pick +AG on a Skelly. It just doubles their cost, and you do NOT want to have a MA5 player carrying your ball. I tried to make it work, and it's just too slow, it kills your offensive progress - it's a big leap in quality of life to go from MA5 to MA6, and from MA6 to MA7. On a Blitz-Ra I might consider +AG as a late pick, but first you really need them to be TacklePOMBing around the pitch.

But surely, Juriel, if your first skill advance on the team was +AG on a Blitz-Ra, wouldn't you just take it and make him into your primary Runner?

All the best.