A Few Thoughts on Necros

[spubbbba]

Sadly the cost of doubles makes it prohibitive to take skills like accurate or pass.

Ghouls and wolves could take catch but always have a normal skill choice that is better. You could give a wight sure hands and strong arm but that still leaves it as a 3+ pass and he has so many other better choices too.

The only way I could see the passing game working was if you got +AG on ideally a ghoul or wolf but a wight would be an option too. He’d then be a serious passing or receiving threat and there is the elven style move, hand off > move, pass > move, score elf tactic with the AG4 guy being in the middle since that is just a 2+, 2+, 3+ assuming a quick pass.

Another option would be if you were underdog would be to hire J Earlice, Wilhelm chaney or a merc ghoul with catch to use as a receiver. This would have the advantage of not messing up your team against other opposition.

[Ullis]

I agree. Necros have enough speed so that a running game should be enough in the majority of offences. Obviously, sometimes they have to resort to passing for desperation plays (like all teams) but that doesn't warrant sacrificing precious positionals for it. Also AG3 doesn't lend itself well to passing anyway.

Taking +AG on any of the positionals is a good idea always but I wouldn't allocate any skills for passing skills. Maybe as a sixth skill a +AG ghoul could take Pass if it happened to roll doubles but that's highly theoretical.

[mattgslater]

Ditto. Passing is for AG4, or at least for AG3 teams with Throwers. Even then, it's a bit dangerous. (Not exactly desperate, but only optimal if the game is in hand or out of hand.) There is a place for QPs in the Necro game, but it's pretty limited at the best of times. AG increases on the speedy guys do make it a little better.

[RogueThirteen]

Yea, the only players on Necro would could be given pass or catch skills have far too many other more important skills/roles on the team:

Even with a dedicated passer developed, I couldn't see it working. The players that could serve as potential receivers (and as such could fan out a bit and force your opponent's defense to spread thin) are also the same players that pretty much have to be a part of the cage protecting your passer. The zombies and FGs simply won't be able to serve as reliable mobile cage corners in lieu of the Wights, Wolves, or Ghouls who spread out for a potential pass.

When you do need to pass as Necro (out of sheer desperation because of your crumbled position or the clock), just hope the TRR is enough to carry the day.

[TheDoc]

Yea, the only players on Necro would could be given pass or catch skills have far too many other more important skills/roles on the team:

Even with a dedicated passer developed, I couldn't see it working. The players that could serve as potential receivers (and as such could fan out a bit and force your opponent's defense to spread thin) are also the same players that pretty much have to be a part of the cage protecting your passer. The zombies and FGs simply won't be able to serve as reliable mobile cage corners in lieu of the Wights, Wolves, or Ghouls who spread out for a potential pass.

When you do need to pass as Necro (out of sheer desperation because of your crumbled position or the clock), just hope the TRR is enough to carry the day.

I agree that you only pass in desperate times. The team is a running team played with a screen or a cage. The speed you have with St3 is cracking and it's this that wins the day. Fluidity is key to being successful as you will normally outmaneuver most teams. The AV7 teams you'll beat off the park and then run around.

[swilhelm73]

So my two primary teams are a Chaos and a Necro team.

One of the things I was considering is that Necro have unusually mobile killers in the form of the wolves because they have A access and mv8.

With my Chaos team I can build a fearsome killer with Block/MB/Frenzy/Claw/PO (theoretically that build series seems to die fast ) - but if you play against a quality opponent you will find you are mostly hitting their least valuable players with him.

OTOH, with my Necro team my wolves can get to a large part of the field to hit opposing critical players. This makes a major difference as you can win the attrition battle - especially with the sturdy FGs and Zs while losing more players on a particular drive.

[Ullis]

With my Chaos team I can build a fearsome killer with Block/MB/Frenzy/Claw/PO (theoretically that build series seems to die fast ) - but if you play against a quality opponent you will find you are mostly hitting their least valuable players with him.

If your opponent lets you keep a chaos killer hit anyone, it won't be for very long usually. He's going to run out of players soon. And you can have multiple killers in a chaos team.

I don't think of werewolves as killer types as Claws alone don't do much damage. Plus Frenzy on ST3 players in a team that doesn't usually have enough Guard can be just awkward. That obviously changes when you get doubles for MB, but a wight can easily be built into a killer type with just MB, PO and Tackle.

[RogueThirteen]

Having gotten in a few more games with Necro, the strategy seems to very much:

- Use the Golems / Zs for screens or marking
- Use the Wights, WWs, and Ghoul(s) for running a loose cage about until you find an opening


This strategy has been discussed quite a bit above, both in terms of Necro as a sort of a flexible "hybrid" team and in terms of "sticky elfball" like game play. Perhaps we can simply call it the "Hold & Bolt" strategy: half the team holds enemy players while half the team bolts around the pitch with the ball.


One thing I'm finding more and more, though, is that with this style of play I simply can't control the clock like a coach with orcs, dwarves, or chaos could. There doesn't seem to be much chance for this type of offense to dally about and take their time until Turn 7 or 8 to score. Either (1) you start losing a few Zs from the pitch and the opponent starts to hem you in more and more, (2) you lose a cage-player or two to blitzes and don't have enough for a reliable cage anymore, or (3) your cage players get marked up so that getting the ball-carrier into the endzone is vastly safer than trying to move around all your AG3 corners.

Either way, I'm finding that with my Necros I'm often in a position of "Uhoh, I have to score on this turn or I'm probably not going to score at all." But perhaps clock-control is just the subtle way to think about this problem: there seem to be at least three distinct ways (above) that can cause this Hold & Bolt style of Necro offense to crumble. Thoughts?

[swilhelm73]

There doesn't seem to be much chance for this type of offense to dally about and take their time until Turn 7 or 8 to score

I think the key is when you make your break to the end zone.

Presuming you have the ball in the hands of a ghoul or a wolf, and have run your offense correctly up until that point, you don't need to break for the endzone until T6.

Yes, some of the time player loss will force you to break sooner...but as a general rule it should not...

[MKL]

About Necro passing game.
I asked if anyone built a successful passing game with Necros, and no one chimed in. Not that I expected differently, really: my own experience is that an ag4 player can be a decent (quick) thrower in a pinch, yet the lack of catcher is crippling. Spubbba's example is the best a Necro can manage, and it's not worth wasting skills on it.

About clock control.
I encountered the same problem as Rogue13: if I stall, I start losing players...
With a caveat: contrary to most poster here, I found I'm able to slow down the game if I "anchor" the middle of the field with the golems. Not a trade off I'm eager to make with claw teams, but with orcs and such I did it.

And I like Rogue13's "hold&bolt"

[mattgslater]

Funny enough, it's easier to build a passing game with Undead: the ability to have four Ghouls means you can build true specialists without interfering so much in your larger strategy.

Re: AG4, usually I prefer to distribute passes to AG4 rather than from, just to get SPP. Maybe that's pre-LRB5 Matt talking, though.

[Juriel]

Passing is a desperation play - your players are fast enough that handing-off should be good enough the vast majority of the time. There's just no reason to waste precious skill picks on skills you should be aiming not to ever use.

One thing I'm finding more and more, though, is that with this style of play I simply can't control the clock like a coach with orcs, dwarves, or chaos could. There doesn't seem to be much chance for this type of offense to dally about and take their time until Turn 7 or 8 to score.

This depends on how you're playing the specific match-up. If you leave the Golems and the Zombies behind while the quicker players run ahead with the ball, then yes, you are likely going to have to score fast once you've committed to that, since none of your supporting players can keep up. And if you lose any of the Wight/Ghoul/Wolves, then your options for who can accompany the ball up the field fast get even more limited.

I haven't found it troublesome to stall with Necro, but then, I'm used to playing bashy teams. If things are going well, there's nothing to stop you from grinding your way up the pitch. It's not all that different from Humans - try to keep the opponent contained / make them commit to one side, switch sides, making use of your superior speed, while trying for targeted bashiness.

[Digger Goreman]

Why there is no passing game is easy to see: No "P" access...! So we're talking "doubles"....

Candidates?

Zombies... nope... even if they weren't a joke, guard is their vastly preferred doubles....

Golems... sheesh... they are just as much an agility joke... slow to skill up... and one of your few Strength access players....

Werewolves... decidedly poor choice as they should be leading the pack... not trailing and passing upfield.... I would nearly drop a lung if anyone refused a strength skill double for passing... and Mighty Blow is the wolf's dream! I still remember how fearsome my two skill, Mighty Blow + Juggernaut Were turned out to be....

Wights... a little scary to burn agility access for pass and to hamstring one of your killer strength pieces.... What little bit of guard you get comes readily from here... as well as the possibility to get Stand Firm and make a great screening team with the golems.... I suppose if a wight got +Ag you might be tempted to tack on Strong Arm....

That leaves, the Ghouls....

Ghouls... the heartbreakers of the undead... no regen... ag 7, and no apothecary... they die faster than a troll gobbles gobbos! They need so much protection... and doubles isn't that useful to your most probable ball fetcher... indeed, I can't remember ever finally even getting Sure Hands on a ghoul... opting for block/wrestle/fend/sidestep in some combination....
If you can keep the wimp working long enough, perhaps Sure Hands/Pass/KoR might come before block/wrestle... but that's heresy to me!

Meh, maybe I'll try it... not like being a blodging fender has kept the little bastards any more alive than just plain dodge....

[RogueThirteen]

Just to keep the discussion fresh, here's a recent question I've run into with Wight development:

Should the second skill after Guard be Tackle, Mighty Blow, or Stand Firm?

I can see the argument for Tackle, as the only other pieces likely to have it will be one safety Ghoul with Wrestle/Tackle. WWs might get tackle, but not until late in the team's life after Block/Dodge/SS.

Mighty Blow: eh, same old arguments. Great on paper, never been overly pleased with it during actual games. Not sure they'd get a ton of use out of this, as the Wights are usually moving into useful Guard positions (rather than blocking) and the wolves are more likely to take the blitz.

Stand Firm: I really want four players with Stand Firm and potentially four with Side Step, as I'd have such amazing control of the pitch space, especially on the sidelines. Couples great with Guard.



As much as I want Stand Firm, though, I keep thinking that Tackle's got to be the skill. Having Tackle on only one ghoul (in theory) just doesn't seem like it will be enough.

[swilhelm73]

Depends on who your opponents are.

If you have a lot of dodgy teams on your schedule, you'll need to take tackle early and occasionally blitz with the Wight.

Of course frenzy on the WWs does help.

2D with block/tackle is 56% chance of taking down a blodge defender.

2D without block is 31% chance of taking down a blodge defender...but if you can manage a second 2D it becomes a 52% change overall.

If you are playing more against bash teams, SF would be more attractive, to support the positioning game.

And if you are playing against av7 non-Zon teams I can see the value in MB. MB vs Norse, for example, is very very nice.